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Thread: Central-West Asian Y-DNA I

  1. #21
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    As stated earlier, I've been in contact with Nordtvedt over the years regarding the sporadic cases of Y-DNA I reported in West and Central Asia. The STR count in the older studies preventing him from pinning down the exact subclades some of those earlier samples belonged to, but he did notice one of the Tajik haplotypes I sent him resembled the "Continental2" cluster, which he told me was characteristic of Central Europe.

    Thousands of Russians were purportedly in Afghanistan prior to the Soviet-Afghan war. However, there's a rather obvious culturo-religious divide between the two peoples. There probably are some Russian-derived Y-DNA I lines in Afghanistan, but I consider it quite unlikely that ethnic Russians are the primary source of these haplotypes.

    [Edit]: Fished up the haplotype Nordtvedt said resembled the Central European cluster:

    Code:
     Y defining marker	Sample	DYS389-I	DYS389-II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS394/19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	YGATAH4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	YGATAC4/Y_DYS635	DYS388	DYS426																																		
    I2b-M223 Tajik 14	32	23	13	16	14	14	16	14	10	19	11	10	12	14	13	21	13	11

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    The most instructive piece of additional evidence to weigh either scenario against the other, for the time being, is STR haplotype comparisons. I have little familiarity with I haplotypes, so I'm hoping a more learned enthusiast would shed some light regarding how "typical" this sample looks relative to the more basal European I's that have been picked up.
    If I scanned the original haplotype correctly, it was not tested for DYS455. As such it may not be relevant but the danishdemes site puts DYS455=8 being found in 98% of I1's, with the other 2% being either 7s or 9s.
    Among European haplotypes, DYS455=8 is virtually exclusive to I1. Most males are 11 at this marker, and the deletion to 8 in Hg I1 is believed to have taken place about 10,000 years ago. Since then, about 2% of I1's have mutated to 7 or 9, but some 98% of I1's still remain 8 at DYS455
    One comment they make on DYS455=8 is that it is also found in a branch of J
    Only a small, Middle Eastern subclade of J2b1a is known to also be 8 at DYS455, however that deletion is believed to have taken place only about a thousand years ago.
    perhaps this is why I've seen posts in this thread mentioning predictions in both I & J.
    Last edited by dp; 02-07-2017 at 11:57 PM.
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    As stated earlier, I've been in contact with Nordtvedt over the years regarding the sporadic cases of Y-DNA I reported in West and Central Asia. The STR count in the older studies preventing him from pinning down the exact subclades some of those earlier samples belonged to, but he did notice one of the Tajik haplotypes I sent him resembled the "Continental2" cluster, which he told me was characteristic of Central Europe.

    Thousands of Russians were purportedly in Afghanistan prior to the Soviet-Afghan war. However, there's a rather obvious culturo-religious divide between the two peoples. There probably are some Russian-derived Y-DNA I lines in Afghanistan, but I consider it quite unlikely that ethnic Russians are the primary source of these haplotypes.

    [Edit]: Fished up the haplotype Nordtvedt said resembled the Central European cluster:

    Code:
     Y defining marker	Sample	DYS389-I	DYS389-II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS394/19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	YGATAH4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	YGATAC4/Y_DYS635	DYS388	DYS426																																		
    I2b-M223 Tajik 14	32	23	13	16	14	14	16	14	10	19	11	10	12	14	13	21	13	11
    By meaning I2a-M423 may be a Slavic admixture I did not mean directly left from the Russian occupation of Afghanistan in the 80s. Some line of arrival could be the Volga and Crimean Russian Tartars, which have some I2a.
    Remember the excitement when haplogroup I was found in the study about Uyghur province in China? However most did not read it was found only among the Tartar minority. These were descendants of Volga Tartars, who came to China as trader in 19 century, some ended there after the demise of the Siberian White Army, a large part of which were Tartars.
    Well some Tartars do live in Bamyan, maybe in other Afghan provinces and may have mixed with the locals. We can go further back to the time of the Mongols and the Golden Horde, Russians were once a part of it. Not mentioning the Balkan connection with Alexander the Great, which was a favourite explanation about J2b2 in that area until it was found they belong to a completely different branch than the Europeans.
    However there is definitely I2a2a(I2b1) in that region, which goes back to the Bronze age. I2b1 was found in Eastern Europe during the Neolithic and the Bronze age and was spread with the back migration of "Scythians" to Central Asia. It is not just a German haplogroup as was speculated before. The only other I branch, which is found outside Europe and is probably ancient is I2c2, however it is localised mainly around Anatolia and Caucasus.

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  6. #24
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    There is some homoplasmy between I1 and G2a haplotypes, especially at 12 STR markers.
    We had several cases in the Bulgarian DNA project, when a newly tested was not assigned a haplogroup and while we were arguing if he is I1 or I2 the Backbone test came back as G.
    With the prediction of unusual and ambiguous haplotypes I always apply the "Occam razor". For example if a Bulgarian matches both West European and Balkan haplogroups and branches (as is sometimes with R1b) I presume he is from the Balkan.
    If a Central Asian resembles both I and J, I would presume he is J, as is common in that region.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I remember that, IJ* was also found in one of the Vestonice samples IIRC. Looks like the Iranian plateau might prove very relevant to IJ's emergence and diversification, I'd certainly like to see more ancient data from Iran.
    I agree with you. The Vestonice IJ probably got extinct.
    But Gravettian are I and IJ newcomers in Europe mixing with autochtone C1a1.
    And J appears as Epigravettian in Georgia.
    Modern humans are present in Georgia since 42 ka.
    It looks like this is the place where IJ split and I wouldn't be surprised if IJ itself came from further east.

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  10. #26
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    Holding these plausible scenarios aside for a moment - I should state that several of these purported Y-DNA I lines in Central Asia and Iran did, in fact, come from studies where backbone SNP testing was undertaken and included the more basal Y-DNA I subclades. I've just re-reviewed Di Cristafaro et al. 2013, Haber et al. 2012 and Haber et al. 2011. All yielded at least 19 Y-STRs alongside backbone SNP testing. There's 16 confirmed Y-DNA I's in Iran and Afghanistan between these three papers (Nordtvedt received a couple of these courtesy of me). Therefore, the focus on haplotype predictions is somewhat beside the point. We know these are Y-DNA I lines (with the exception of the likely typing error you picked up).

    Addressing the subclades and reconciling the samples with your information, from the above papers (most downstream confirmed SNP shown):
    8x I2b1-M223 (4 Hazaras, 1 Tajik, 3 Iranians from Isfahan, Khorasan, South Iran - two of the four Hazaras from Bamiyan and share the same haplotype)
    2x I2-M438 (2x Tajiks from Balkh, share the same haplotype)
    1x I2a1b-M423 (1x Tajik)
    2x I2a2-M436 (1x Mongolia, 1x South Iran)
    3x I-M170 (2x West Iran, 1x East Iran - This paper didn't include anything further downstream SNP-wise)

    As expected, mostly I2b1. I suspect the other confirmed I2's are due to the various scenarios you envisaged (Tatars, Slavic admixture, bidirectional movements due to the various Turkic or Mongol empires).

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MfA View Post
    Can you guys check if any prediction in the spreadsheet below doesn't seem right and have a better one? (FYI the empty cells under the Haplogroup column is prediction and/or STR comparison from FTDNA projects and not SNP confirmed.)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    Lately I am using the nevgen.org predictor. It was developed recently by a Serbian guy and includes all Balkan and East European haplotypes. Previous predictors like Athey's are based almost exclusively on West European samples and do not work correctly with more Eastern haplotypes.

    Regarding the Kurdish samples I find ambiguous the last 2. The I2b2 according to me is most likely what we called previously J2a* (probably J2a PF5050 now). It would be normal for the last to be I2c2, but I2c1!? It is found in Western Europe only and some offshoots in Eastern Europe.
    The Nevgen predictor also thinks the first is more likely to be O!? Haplogroup O is found in Azerbaijan, so it is not improbable for a Kurd with it.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Lately I am using the nevgen.org predictor. It was developed recently by a Serbian guy and includes all Balkan and East European haplotypes. Previous predictors like Athey's are based almost exclusively on West European samples and do not work correctly with more Eastern haplotypes.

    Regarding the Kurdish samples I find ambiguous the last 2. The I2b2 according to me is most likely what we called previously J2a* (probably J2a PF5050 now). It would be normal for the last to be I2c2, but I2c1!? It is found in Western Europe only and some offshoots in Eastern Europe.
    The Nevgen predictor also thinks the first is more likely to be O!? Haplogroup O is found in Azerbaijan, so it is not improbable for a Kurd with it.
    What're their IDs in the spreadsheet?

    I don't see any O at al. I said the ones with empty cells are predictions based on nevgen and FTDNA database others are SNP confirmed I2 cases. D24 is I2, no question at all. Its poor fit is purely based on the database nevgen predictor uses which probably mainly Europeans, and since D24 is SNP confirmed, we can say it's STR profile is unique and likely pretty diverged from the rest based on low res STR.
    Last edited by MfA; 02-08-2017 at 10:28 AM.
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  15. #29
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    Not sure how Nevgen works, but let's take Kurd3, who is predicted to I2b2 L38.
    If you enter only the first 12(in fact 10 markers) it comes with J2a1 Z1846> Y8378 96.53%.
    Only if you enter the last tested 437=15 and 438=10 it comes with I2a2b-L38 83.46%. Somehow it thinks those markers combination changes radically the prediction. However I can see in the J2 project quite a few from the J2a-PF5050 have these values as well, which are otherwise unusual for J2a.
    Regarding haplogroup O, see for yourself by entering the STRs of D24.
    O3a2 85.39%

  16. #30
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    I assume D24 is the same as the I2a2a-M223 sample from Dogukoy which Palisto identified as being Kurdish, MfA?

    Here is the paper. They did not employ backbone Y-SNP testing, as most of the Central Asian and Iranian Y-DNA I's I shared above had. Gokcumen et al. 2011 only used 17 STR's for the paternal side and HVR1 for the maternal.

    To make matters worse:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gokcumen paper
    To dissect the temporal origins of the genotypes observed in Yuksekyer, we allocated Y-STR haplotypes to SNP haplogroups using Haplogroup Predictor Online Software (Athey 2004; see Figure 6).
    Athey's calculator is one of the most outdated ones they could've used; several better alternatives have existed since 2010. Here's D24 in the supplementary data:

    Code:
    Sample	Hg	Prob.	DYS 19	DYS 385a	DYS 385b	DYS 389I	DYS 389II	DYS 390	DYS 391	DYS 392	DYS 393	DYS 437	DYS 438	DYS 439	DYS 448	DYS 456	DYS 458	DYS 635	H4-GATA
    D24	I1b1	95.4	15	15	17	12	31	24	12	13	12	15	10	14	20	15	16	25	21
    I recall running this data through a more up-to-date predictor four years ago and found some of the other assignments were incorrect.

    On the basis of the above, D24 is not guaranteed to belong to Y-DNA I and any superior Y-STR predictor to Athey's one should be considered more authoritative.

    [ADMIN] Changing title to reflect broadening of discussion.

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