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Thread: The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Swedish Hunter-Gatherers also had some actual EHG admixture from Russia:

    ...
    Similarly,
    Motala not only had ANE but also had EDAR.

    "MA1 shares more alleles with Motala12 (SHG) than with Loschbour, and Motala12 fits as a
    mixture of 81% WHG and 19% ANE"

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  3. #22
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    Is this the Baltic paper that has been talked about over the last 9-12 months? I never really considered R1b as a candidate as EEF or CHG, so a transitional position along WHG-EHG has always made the most sense and lines up with our other data including modern samples from just about anywhere in northern Europe.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    The LN Latvian apparently is from Corded Ware culture, so its lack of Anatolian Farmer makes it an outlier compared to usual CW.
    They may potentially be an acculturated native, or reflective of CW's heterogeneity in that time period. We'll no doubt be observing plenty of cases of both examples in the coming few years. The Srubnaya outlier is an earlier example of either phenomenon.

    It isn't clear to me whether the assignment of the "outlier" status by the researchers is arbitrarily granted based on qualitative differences with contemporaneous samples, or whether there's a statistical definition (f.ex. SD). Any ideas on this, Shaikorth?

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    They may potentially be an acculturated native, or reflective of CW's heterogeneity in that time period. We'll no doubt be observing plenty of cases of both examples in the coming few years. The Srubnaya outlier is an earlier example of either phenomenon.

    It isn't clear to me whether the assignment of the "outlier" status by the researchers is arbitrarily granted based on qualitative differences with contemporaneous samples, or whether there's a statistical definition (f.ex. SD). Any ideas on this, Shaikorth?
    Because they highlight the lack of farmer admixture in comparison to Estonian CW, I think it fits the definition if there is a commonly used one. "Outlier" could also be flexible, even if Latvia_LN lacks the farmer mixture it looks to be much closer to regular CW than Srubnaya outlier is to Srubnaya mainstream.

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    Haven't read fully yet but this is surprising
    Somewhat different results than a different teams talk I saw on Baltic Mesolithic !
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 02-02-2017 at 07:05 PM.

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  10. #26
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    The latest Neolithic sample in our Baltic time series, Latvia_LN1 (5,039–4,626 cal BP), which was found in a crouched burial of the type associated with the Late Neolithic Corded Ware culture [21], falls near other Late Neolithic and Bronze Age European and Steppe samples in PCA analysis (Figure 2A). In ADMIXTURE analysis, it is composed of the blue component (Figure 2, which is predominant in all of the older Latvian samples, but also a green component, which is maximized in hunter-gatherer samples from the Caucasus. A Caucasus-related influence in this sample is also suggested by positive results (although without formal significance, Z > 2) for tests of the form D(Mbuti, Caucasus hunter-gatherer; Latvian Mesolithic, Latvia_LN1). Ancestry related to hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus has previously been postulated to have arrived in Europe through herders from the Pontic Steppe [1, 31], and these migrations could potentially be the source of this ancestry in our sample. Interestingly, this individual lived around the time of later date estimates
    any explanation to the conection to chg
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    Adam
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    geno 2 next genration after fixed rounding error : i am 99% human + 1% archaic caveman
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    1 Druze + Lithuanian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Samaritians @ 0.000000 Hidden Content Hidden Content

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Is this the Baltic paper that has been talked about over the last 9-12 months? I never really considered R1b as a candidate as EEF or CHG, so a transitional position along WHG-EHG has always made the most sense and lines up with our other data including modern samples from just about anywhere in northern Europe.
    If this is the same paper, then someone was trolling us.

    Because rumours were that it was going to be something else.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-02-2017 at 07:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Haven't read but this is surprising
    Somewhat different results than a different teams talk I saw on Baltic Mesolithic !
    Maybe samples from Lithuania will be different than samples from Latvia?

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Good point to pick up, but it doesn't make any difference to the origins of the Narva and Ertebolle cultures. The split between R1b1a and R1a1b appears old enough to fit the wandering north of some pointed-bottom pottery-makers.

    Mind you, I would be cautious in assigning the Latvian samples to R1b1b just yet. So far R1b-PH155 has not been found in Latvia, as far as I know. In fact it seems to be an Asian split-off, found in Tajikistan and Bhutan: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ight=R1b-PH155
    IMO the R1b-PH155 going into the Indian Subcontinent is a much older pre-Villabruna split when R types were still traveling from the Baikal to the west.

    True, with older samples we have the possibility of spurious positives shared with other branches, missing or unreadable SNPs etc. To me it is not clear how good that maximum likelihood claim is. Two samples do give me a lot more confidence than one though.
    Last edited by parasar; 02-02-2017 at 07:10 PM.

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Because they highlight the lack of farmer admixture in comparison to Estonian CW, I think it fits the definition if there is a commonly used one. "Outlier" could also be flexible, even if Latvia_LN lacks the farmer mixture it looks to be much closer to regular CW than Srubnaya outlier is to Srubnaya mainstream.
    Yes, that is the basis of my inquiry. I haven't seen any discussions regarding whether the "outlier" label is standardised in population genetics papers, or whether it is arbitrarily assigned to samples which are just sufficiently different from the emerging norm for a given culture.

    Srubnaya_Outlier (M235073) is certainly very different from regular Srubnaya (M328175). Outlier is essentially an EMBA sample, regular looks similar to Sintashta and Andronovo (LNBA). I think the acculturation model works with the Srubnaya situation given that stark difference. Remains to be seen what might have happened in the Baltic portion of the CW horizon.

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