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Thread: The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

  1. #511
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    .................................
    Last edited by wombatofthenorth; 09-09-2017 at 04:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I don't think that evoking serfdom is useful... probably, you didn't search properly: surnames are likely to change many times in past, before the creation of a real and institutional registrar of French derivation (for example, in Italy, surnames ceased to change and, in those region where they didn't exist at all, like in some Umbria valleys, to be fixed only AFTER the arrival of Napoleon, who creates a registrar. The previous registrar weren't precise as French one, in the sense that, as local, they followed the manner people called other people, so a nickname could easily be registered in place of the real surname and, in the next year census, the nickname remained as surname). Probably, in Latvia happened more or less the same. I think you should try to see the records of German places in your region: Hanseatic League was present... I remember well when I went to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia a lot of German Hansa houses and also place names! Cross results of people with the same family name and follow collateral branches when your line is difficult.
    no, Latvians never had surnames in the pre-Germanic crusades times and were not allowed to have them once they were turned into serfs. They were allowed to chose, or assigned by some local official, surnames in the year 1826 or 1835 (actually 1861 far the farthest eastern part) when serfdom was finally abolished.

    This also lead to some interesting things since if neither the grandfather nor the father were around at the time of naming each brother could chose or end up being assigned a different surname! On one of our lines the surname even came from a mother's brother's assigned surname since her husband and his father and grandfather were not around in the year of the naming. And you can end up with weird scenarios where one family turns into say six different surnames, which might looks like mistaken genealogy as you follow lines with different surnames all back to the same place. And I've even seen one case where on this one farm guy 1 got surname A and another guy 2 got surname B and another 3 also got surname B but it's not guy 2 and 3 who are related but 1 and 3!

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  4. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombatofthenorth View Post
    no, Latvians never had surnames in the pre-Germanic crusades times and were not allowed to have them once they were turned into serfs. They were allowed to chose, or assigned by some local official, surnames in the year 1826 or 1835 (actually 1861 far the farthest eastern part) when serfdom was finally abolished.

    This also lead to some interesting things since if neither the grandfather nor the father were around at the time of naming each brother could chose or end up being assigned a different surname! On one of our lines the surname even came from a mother's brother's assigned surname since her husband and his father and grandfather were not around in the year of the naming. And you can end up with weird scenarios where one family turns into say six different surnames, which might looks like mistaken genealogy as you follow lines with different surnames all back to the same place. And I've even seen one case where on this one farm guy 1 got surname A and another guy 2 got surname B and another 3 also got surname B but it's not guy 2 and 3 who are related but 1 and 3!
    Understood... It's really difficult... My area of origin in Italy is one of the first to fix surnames (Venice was the first, with, probably, surnames in the IX-X century; Lombardy and Piedmont are the next ones, with surnames fixed in XI-XII century), so it's easy to trace lines at least until 1600... before documents are rarer, but if your family was someway involved in politics or nobility, you can easily reach 1300. Latvian system before 1826 was similar to that we have here until today in Ethiopia: no surnames (like in Iceland in Europe). Obviously, I have a surname because I descend from Italians arrived in Ethiopia at the beginning of XX century.

    For curiosity: so only German immigrants had a surname in the Middle Ages in Latvia?

  5. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    Understood... It's really difficult... My area of origin in Italy is one of the first to fix surnames (Venice was the first, with, probably, surnames in the IX-X century; Lombardy and Piedmont are the next ones, with surnames fixed in XI-XII century), so it's easy to trace lines at least until 1600... before documents are rarer, but if your family was someway involved in politics or nobility, you can easily reach 1300. Latvian system before 1826 was similar to that we have here until today in Ethiopia: no surnames (like in Iceland in Europe). Obviously, I have a surname because I descend from Italians arrived in Ethiopia at the beginning of XX century.

    For curiosity: so only German immigrants had a surname in the Middle Ages in Latvia?
    The same in Poland. Only nobility and townsmen have surnames before XVII/XVIII century (and it was 10-15% of entire society).

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    "Dictionary of the oldest Polish surnames":

    http://rcin.org.pl/Content/38217/WA2...-NAZW_0000.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombatofthenorth View Post
    I think he was Russian and Ashkenazi in ancestry heritage though.

    However, in a different thread, one northern Dutch person had an odd score and got way more direct WHG on the geneplaza K12 test than other Western Europeans and even got a bit of a Steppe sub-component found in modern Baltic people but seemingly not much at all in Western Europe. And there is talk of some old swamp refugees for HG in the region of the Netherlands and also a HG push back against farmers at one point, now thought perhaps to have come out of the Baltics.
    Odd? I guess when more people form North Dutch ancestry wil test they probably got the same HG results. Especially the higher grounds in the Netherlands, not the swamps but the woods but through rivers connected with the North Sea, have a very ancient population. As said Swifterbant/Ertebølle like. Combinations of fishing, hunting, primitive agriculture...optimal suited for their environment. Jut like for example West Norway (Evon had some same results).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Odd? I guess when more people form North Dutch ancestry wil test they probably got the same HG results. Especially the higher grounds in the Netherlands, not the swamps but the woods but through rivers connected with the North Sea, have a very ancient population. As said Swifterbant/Ertebølle like. Combinations of fishing, hunting, primitive agriculture...optimal suited for their environment. Jut like for example West Norway (Evon had some same results).
    If modern Frisians are direct ancestors of local population or they migrated here in Volkerwanderung times and their HG is from Schleswig / Jutland for example?

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    @Lukasz The terps from Friesland, Groningen, East Friesland (Germany) are from 500 BC and were inhabited from people from the more inland, sandy, places of Friesland, Drenthe, East- Friesland. These people are related to the Elp culture or Nordic Bronze Age. The bearers of R1b U106 so to speak.
    In the 3/4th century there was as population dip in Friesland (Westergo) the most, less in Groningen and more less in East-Friesland. There was indeed an influx of the Saxons and Angles and may be other Nordics. But this was in some sort of way a reflux! So the nephews and nieces came back May be some little more loaded with Eastern influences (see Rise 174).
    The hunter gatherer component is mostly from Drenthe, wiki: "Drenthe has been populated by people since prehistory. Artifacts from the Wolstonian Stage (150,000 years ago) are among the oldest found in the Netherlands. In fact, it was one of the most densely populated areas of the Netherlands until the Bronze Age. The most tangible evidence of this are the dolmens (hunebedden) built around 3500 BC. 53 of the 54 dolmens in the Netherlands can be found in Drenthe, concentrated in the northeast of the province." Drenthe had no population set back at the end of the Roman period.
    The North Dutch are well known for their WHG features...."overgrown Nordics" as Coon said.
    Last edited by Finn; 09-11-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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    "Dutch men and Latvian women tallest in world according to 100-year height study."

    Imperial College, London - July 2016.
    Last edited by Boreas; 09-15-2017 at 05:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    "Dutch men and Latvian women tallest in world according to 100-year height study."

    Imperial College, London - July 2016.
    Yes and of them the North Dutch are the tallest.....
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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