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Thread: Descent from Alfred the Great

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnieD View Post
    Why do people still care about (distant) genealogy?

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33490-Why-do-people-still-care-about-(distant)-genealogy

    Seeing as how I was guilty of getting a thrill when a genetic match claimed that we descended from King Alfred the Great , I thought that I should probably check-out this new thread at the Eupedia forum. The discussion was started by the site founder, Maciamo, who creates all of those snazzy haplogroup maps cited in population genetics studies.

    What kind of ‘road map’ does he propose for tracing lineages further back than a few hundred years without hitting too many roadblocks (or getting totally lost)? Well, namely that it is fairly pointless to try and trace family trees via genetics more than 200 years back. Here are his key points to help you decide whether you’ll ever name-drop a Charlemagne or King or Queen at family reunion or cocktail party again:
    ____________________________

    “There is often some kind of pride in some families to be able to claim that one descends from this or that famous ancestor who lived hundreds of years ago. Many will claim royal ancestry, and that typically ends up with the oldest surviving family trees in Europe, like those of the Carolingian and Merovingian dynasties. In fact, in countries where paper trails are particularly good, like in the UK, with a bit of effort almost anyone can find that they descend from Charlemagne and Clovis. Even if they can't, chances are that they do descend from them anyway, like most of us.”

    "I was startled and rather disturbed to find out that the majority of people who order DNA tests do it for genealogical purposes, e.g. to complete their family tree or find distant cousins. I think that it's rather moronic (and I don't remember when is the last time I had to use that word before)."

    1) There is no point in claiming descent from ancestors who lived more than two centuries ago, because you may not have inherited any DNA from them

    2) Third and more distant cousins do not share any meaningful amount of DNA with you

    Conclusion

    "Attaching importance to distant ancestors or distant cousins in one's genealogy is almost as irrational and meaningless as astrology. People purchasing DNA tests for that sole purpose are wasting their money."
    __________________________________________________ _______


    My take-away: I would hate to dash the hopes of my 75-year old cousin match about our vaulted distant connection to royalty. Some things should remain family secrets.
    It depends on your knowledge of the subject..what evidence you have and what type of DNA tests you're comparing. People who have a lack of knowledge on the subject will use an autosomal test like Family Finder which can reveal a non match with others of the same surname yet test them for the YSTR and SNP's and the same people will be a match who have a common ancestor only a couple of hundred years prior. Your conclusion is flat out wrong "but" people can be deceived to think there is historical connection if the purpose is to sell the testing itself.

    George

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    As far as DNA testing of Royalty or nobility, maybe it's like turning over a stone, you never know what might crawl out and undermine the whole basis of the system. John
    What do you make of this?:-

    http://www.theworldoftruth.net/Halle...l#.WKHtclWLSUl

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by astondive View Post
    I don't know too much about that story but I know Monarchs/Nobility have had loads of illegitimate children and as they say "it's a wise man who knows his own father" John

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grossvater View Post
    I do wonder if sometime in the future there will be moves to DNA test the remains of famous historical figures. They wouldn't have to open all the tombs, just important ones from whom dynasties derive, such as Charlemagne, King Henry VII, Charles V, etc. It would be interesting to get an autosomal test on the remains of King Charles II of England just to see how much of his DNA really has spread throughout the modern British aristocracy.

    I understand the present monarch of Great Britain has been unreceptive to such suggestions but perhaps one of her successors will be more amenable and allow DNA researchers to open up a tomb or two in Westminster Abbey in the interest of science. I do not understand why DNA testing on the skeletons of the boys found in the Tower of London, who might be King Edward IV's sons, has not been allowed.
    Why is it those without royalty are fascinated by it, and seek to create scenarios around its authenticity?
    What questions are trying to be answered here: who should really be the faces on the celebrity magazines?

  8. #45
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    It's relatively easy to trace back to Anglo-Norman lords and knights, etc. But direct line descent from royalty seems a bit harder. I've been trying to pin down my "Lee" line. But it is still elusive. The latest Lee clade that I've been delving into does not seem to tie into the Robert E. Lee clade which does go back to royalty (King John). The problem is the degeneracy of colonial/post-colonial record keeping.

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    It's not just about inherited DNA. It's history; one's personal attachment to history. It makes me feel that I belong.
    Yeah, I think this nails it on the head for me, why I find it interesting or even fun to connect myself genealogically with figures such as Alfred the Great or Charlemagne, it gives a sense of belonging and also perspective on the flow of history. Too distant to be very applicable for heredity purposes of course, but neat to see the connection and changes through history.

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  12. #47
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    Usually for me it's because I love history, and/or looking to confirm some family traditions. My Grandfather has a very good chance of being a direct descendant of the O'Dwyer Chieftains of Kilnamanagh and also their allies the family of Butler of Ormond (A Hiberno-Norman family). Now I am not just going on "tradition" here. I'm trying to involve science and DNA here along with Irish traditional naming patterns (as records are hard to find/or don't exist in some periods in Ireland). So first off my 3rd GGF Philip O'Dwyer had a forename quite common among the Chiefs and the last true Chief before they lost their guerilla war to Cromwell - was in fact a Philip O'Dwyer. Also many other forenames there were common among them (and my family). One you don't see very often - Leonora - was the name of a Butler woman who married one Chief - my 3rd GGM was Leonora O'Dwyer. Also my O'Dwyers lived most likely in West Clare where many O'Dwyers were exiled after they lost their lands in Kilnamanagh.

    Another piece of evidence that I think lends weight to my hypothesis is that I have a ton of Irish Butler ancestry among my Irish American cousin matches. One cousin even traces his Butlers (fairly recently in his ancestry) to the Butlers from Ormond.

    At the end of the day - I want to work with the genealogy centers in Tipperary and Ormond and Clare to possibly identify proven descendants of these families, or at least find the surname clusters and test some of them to see what we find.

    The whole reason I would put so much effort into this... is that I think it can be done through DNA plus networking... and also it's a really cool lineage. The O'Dwyers are famous rebels and famous fighters who accompanied Boru to fight the Vikings near Dublin. They gave Cromwell one hell of a go... and my Grandfather when he was in his cups drinking gin or whiskey... would laugh and say we were famous horse thieves aka rebels! Hah! Good story! Actually now that it comes to mind... I often wonder if he was referring to this story here:

    "It seems that some time previously some horses, the property of St. Leger's brother-in-law, Mr. Kingsmill of Ballyowen near Cashel, were stolen by 'idle fellows from Eliogarty'. In retaliation St. Leger summarily executed three men suspected of having being implicated in the robbery. However, his thirst for blood and revenge was still not sated, so St. Leger moved to Grange where he hanged three innocent labourers... moving then to Ballymureen where a further six were executed ... on to Galbertstown where six more suffered a similar fate while many homes in the area were put to the torch."

    This seems to have been one of the starting events of the Rebellion of 1641...

    Here is an example of their line of descent...

    Donato the Great O’Dwyer = daughter of O’Brien, Prince of Thomondia
    of Kilnamona, Co. Tipperary
    |
    Antony O’Dwyer = daughter of the Great O’Kennedy of Ormondia
    |
    Antony O’Dwyer, lived in1175 = Isabel, daughter of O’Kennedy
    |
    Charles O’Dwyer = Elena, daughter of O’Brien, king of Thomondia
    |
    Philip O’Dwyer = Honeria, daughter of O’Carol, prince of Elia
    |
    John O’Dwyer = Sara, daughter of Burke
    |
    Antony O’Dwyer married in 1273 = Mary, daughter of McCarthy, great prince of
    Desmond
    |
    Cornelius O’Dwyer = Leonora, daughter of Butler, family of Ormond
    |
    William O’Dwyer = Honeria, daughter of MacWilliam of House of Clanricard
    Baron of Kilnemanagh
    |
    Edmund O’Dwyer = Kathleen, daughter of Jacob Butler of House of Ormond
    |
    Philip O’
    Dwyer, Baron of Kilmenagh = Margaret, daughter of Butler of Ormond
    |
    Demetruius O’Dwyer = Juana, daughter of Butler, Lord of Dunboyne
    |
    Antony O’Dwyer, Baron = Juana, daughter of Thomas Fitzgerald
    |
    Gorman O’Dwyer = daughter of O’Carol, Prince of Elia

    Almost all these forenames are shared with the O'Dwyers of Kilmurry Ibricken parish in West Clare - I am currently searching the parish records there - I have found a Philip O'Dwyer who could very well be my 3rd GGF Philip... I think all the O'Dwyers in Kilmurry were all related and from the same family.

    Cheers
    Charlie
    Male line: MDKA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ Roman "Gladiator or Soldier" skeleton #3 from 6 Driffield cemetery SW of York! I also share R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306 with 3drif-16.

    Maternal Line: MDKA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana circa 1843 in Ireland - MtDNA - T2b2b - most common in Ireland and Scotland.

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  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by astondive View Post
    Wow, is this the British version of National Inquirer?

    "The British Royal Family tends not to acknowledge challenges to the Throne and the way you see a Challenge to the Throne is by their Royal Reaction. And the British Royal Family’s Royal reactions are through births, deaths and marriages.

    So the first thing they did was to instruct Prince William to get engaged to the Commoner Kate, and there was even betting at Ladbrokes about their engagement from about the 16th of October 2010."

    "Lord Louis Mountbatten found evidence of the true King and he used that on Prince Philip’s behalf to become engaged to Princess Elizabeth. And Princess Elizabeth was sold by her parents into marriage to cover up the illegitimacy of the British Monarchy. So Queen Elizabeth is essentially a human trafficking slave. And to maintain the front of the Legitimacy of the British Monarchy, she would do absolutely anything that Prince Philip wants.

    Now Prince Philip has been filmed in a parade with the Nazis, which was actually a funeral parade, but Prince Philip is a Nazi and he is actually the leading Nazi in England."

    Whew, sounds like some one needs to hire a professional genealogist (Ancestry.com?) for the royal family before the "Fake News" crews discover any more secrets in the attic.
    Heritage: American-mostly British Diaspora. Some Colonial lines.
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