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Thread: Caucasion component in Arabian peninsula

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Well first, SW Asian is not an actual component but rather a result of having one population to peaks 100% in a cluster. For example, we can create an Egyptian component by having a component to peaks at 100% in Egyptians and have neighboring populations like Palestinians, Jordanians scoring 50% Egyptian or Libyans scoring 35-40% Egyptian. This does not necessarily mean that Palestinians, Jordanians and Libyans are actually 35-40 or 50% Egyptian ancestry. SW Asian I believe is actually mostly Natufian+CHG-related/Iran Neolithic+SSA ancestry (East African type). The Natufian+Iran Neolithic/CHG-related should contain quite a lot of Basal Eurasian (African-like admixture). The CHG should not be actual one but rather something CHG-like/Iran N-like that lacks any ANE as indigenous SW Asians usually don't have ANE.
    Thank you for pointing this out; the reason i emphasized on Southwest Asian; is usually native(mixed or not) people from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, and Kuwait tend to score highest in Southwest Asian in different ancestry tests(including gedmatch); at times i agree with you SW asian can be a very broad term but then again if done correctly it is the only geographic component that can match accuratley with a peninsular Arab. Basically, looking for SW asian component in most tests will measure up how much you descend from the Arabian peninsula. Which is usually not the case for people from other countries, but then again i really believe, if they wanted to sample an Arabian accurately they should develop a new sample that will be based on tribal Saudis, Yemenite Jews, Highlanders and Bedouins; because thats the only way they can sample an indigenous arabian who does not hold very high Mediterranean and west Asian admixture.

    Me personally so far i found Decoad V3 the most accurate testing for me, because it somewhat knew where the geographic locations are located so it gave me accurate results based on my ethnicity composition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    It make sense if they have African ancestry though as indigenous Arabians often score around 5-10% SSA of East African type probably from Horner-like population who in turn got it from Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic-like SSA groups). Pure SW Asians I think look like tribal Bedouins in the Arabian peninsula. Wow I never heard of this thing called "Levantine shift". Can you elaborate more on it please? I also noticed that many Saudi Arabians, Qataris actually hardly have any facial hair at all. I think the stereotype that Arabs are hairy people is completely wrong.
    Levantine shift is a person who's facial features shift to a more levantine(syrian, lebanese, etc) look; partially not fully.

    That stereotype is very wrong, but it shows you how ignorant people can be at times; basically these two images show you the amount of facial hair a pure arabid would have.

    gallery.5.jpgo-YEMEN-JEWS-ISRAEL-facebook.jpg

    also the following two images phenotypically speaking are what indigenous/native southwest asians kids would look like
    gallery.1.jpggallery.3.jpg
    Last edited by hman92; 12-05-2016 at 04:58 PM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lank View Post
    No modern Arabians lack the component affiliated with the ancient Caucasus or Iran Neolithic samples, not any of the samples we have so far anyway.

    In some ADMIXTURE runs, a SW Asian component peaks at 100% in certain Arabians, as they form their own cluster easily due to their isolation and small founding population. However, in more stable runs (see, e.g., genetiker's runs), even the most isolated Arabian samples we have, the BedouinB, show notable Caucasus or Iran N. This was visible even in some of the runs before we had Near Eastern aDNA, but is now even more evident considering we actually have ancient samples to compare with.

    Proto-Semitic dispersals from the Levant during the Bronze Age are a great candidate for this component's dispersal into Arabia. This would explain why it's notably low in certain Berbers and East Africans, despite their significant SW Asian ancestry.

    When/how it got into the Levant is an interesting question, considering it was lacking in the Mesolithic/Neolithic Levant samples, but found in the Y-DNA J1 Bronze Age samples from Jordan. Y-DNA J is notably absent or rare in Levant/Anatolia aDNA before the Bronze Age, and rather prevalent in the Caucasus/Iran since at least the Mesolithic period.
    Very informative post, do they have a place in the site where they label these colours because i can't seem to find the labelings of these colours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman92 View Post
    Thank you for pointing this out; the reason i emphasized on Southwest Asian; is usually native(mixed or not) people from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, and Kuwait tend to score highest in Southwest Asian in different ancestry tests(including gedmatch); at times i agree with you SW asian can be a very broad term but then again if done correctly it is the only geographic component that can match accuratley with a peninsular Arab. Basically, looking for SW asian component in most tests will measure up how much you descend from the Arabian peninsula. Which is usually not the case for people from other countries, but then again i really believe, if they wanted to sample an Arabian accurately they should develop a new sample that will be based on tribal Saudis, Yemenite Jews, Highlanders and Bedouins; because thats the only way they can sample an indigenous arabian who does not hold very high Mediterranean and west Asian admixture.

    Me personally so far i found Decoad V3 the most accurate testing for me, because it somewhat knew where the geographic locations are located so it gave me accurate results based on my ethnicity composition.
    You welcome. The reason the native tribal Arabs formed their own SW Asian component can also be due to geographic isolation and small population. The thing is the CHG-like/Iran N-like affinity in the SW Asian component seem to be very ancient and might date back to prehistoric times. I agree genetic experts should develop a special calculator to figure out the actual indigenous ancestry in SW Asians. However in this case, it seems Natufian which seems to make up most of the SW Asian component, is rather native/indigenous to the Arabian peninsula.

    Do you have other SW Asian matches in gedmatch from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman and other SW Asian Gulf countries ? Can you share them please if you don't mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by hman92 View Post
    Levantine shift is a person who's facial features shift to a more levantine(syrian, lebanese, etc) look; partially not fully.

    That stereotype is very wrong, but it shows you how ignorant people can be at times; basically these two images show you the amount of facial hair a pure arabid would have.

    gallery.5.jpgo-YEMEN-JEWS-ISRAEL-facebook.jpg

    also the following two images phenotypically speaking are what indigenous/native southwest asians kids would look like
    gallery.1.jpggallery.3.jpg
    Are these Levantine shift in facial features the most common in northern parts of the Arabian peninsula? Well you are right Levantines do grow quite better facial hair compared to indigenous Arabians. A Turkish user in the this forum said this: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape...1713&t=4193263 But in my opinion, I think Levantines will easily be defeated by Northern Indians/Pakis, Afghans, Caucasians, Iranians, Turks, some Iraqis as I believe these groups have a lot more epic beard level on average than Levantines.

    Yes pure Arabids like tribal Saudi Arabians, other Bedouins, Yemeni Jews and Highlanders can hardly grow any facial hair. Are the pure Arabid pictures on the left of Yemeni Muslim and on the right a Yemeni Jew? What countries are the SW Asian kids from?

    Yes this is stereotype that Arabs are "very hairy with very long beards" is a very wrong and extreme misconception as indigenous Arabians can hardly grow any facial hair. I also noticed that a lot of Saudi Arabians, Qataris that I saw in the airports seem to have a lot of trouble growing facial hair. The Saudis that seem to have very weak and little facial hair like this: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2761/...9610cff658.jpg
    http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...62701-32-2.jpg
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=9v8bww&s=3
    http://s523.photobucket.com/user/Aiz...9a197.jpg.html

    I live in Oman before and Omanis have a lot of facial hair compared to other Arabians. But that is because I think Omanis have a lot of Baloch, Iranian and South Asian admix. I think this "hairy long beard" stereotype is perpetuated by Western fear of Muslims. I think when they say Arabs are "hairy people with long beards", they are mistaking the Talibans for Arabs when in fact they are Afghans, who generally have very epic facial hair.

    In fact in another forum, a half Iraqi Bedouin member said that indigenous SW Asians have a lot of trouble growing facial hair: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape...1725&t=4193263
    Last edited by Tsakhur; 12-05-2016 at 10:36 PM.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    You welcome. The reason the native tribal Arabs formed their own SW Asian component can also be due to geographic isolation and small population. The thing is the CHG-like/Iran N-like affinity in the SW Asian component seem to be very ancient and might date back to prehistoric times. I agree genetic experts should develop a special calculator to figure out the actual indigenous ancestry in SW Asians. However in this case, it seems Natufian which seems to make up most of the SW Asian component, is rather native/indigenous to the Arabian peninsula.

    Do you have other SW Asian matches in gedmatch from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman and other SW Asian Gulf countries ? Can you share them please if you don't mind?
    Im planning to do FTDNA soon, so then ill be able to post a lot of accurate results. Geno 2.0 is too far off, im relating with people all over the world and most of them are either europeans or african americans lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Are these Levantine shift in facial features the most common in northern parts of the Arabian peninsula? Well you are right Levantines do grow quite better facial hair compared to indigenous Arabians. A Turkish user in the this forum said this: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape...1713&t=4193263 But in my opinion, I think Levantines will easily be defeated by Northern Indians/Pakis, Afghans, Caucasians, Iranians, Turks, some Iraqis as I believe these groups have a lot more epic beard level on average than Levantines.
    In Arabia, the more you go north the more you see a levantine shift take place; but some yemenis obtained these features from the turks when they came to yemen, many of them married to local women and never returned to turkey so they somewhat shifted yemen ethnically, at times i wonder what some yemenis looked like before the ottomans came in; because the ottomans had a profound impact on some parts of yemen in terms of ancestry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Yes pure Arabids like tribal Saudi Arabians, other Bedouins, Yemeni Jews and Highlanders can hardly grow any facial hair. Are the pure Arabid pictures on the left of Yemeni Muslim and on the right a Yemeni Jew? What countries are the SW Asian kids from?
    They're all from Yemen and all of them are Jews except for the guy who wasn't wearing the traditional dress; the kids are also yemenite jews

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Yes this is stereotype that Arabs are "very hairy with very long beards" is a very wrong and extreme misconception as indigenous Arabians can hardly grow any facial hair. I also noticed that a lot of Saudi Arabians, Qataris that I saw in the airports seem to have a lot of trouble growing facial hair. The Saudis that seem to have very weak and little facial hair like this: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2761/...9610cff658.jpg
    http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...62701-32-2.jpg
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=9v8bww&s=3
    http://s523.photobucket.com/user/Aiz...9a197.jpg.html

    I live in Oman before and Omanis have a lot of facial hair compared to other Arabians. But that is because I think Omanis have a lot of Baloch, Iranian and South Asian admix. I think this "hairy long beard" stereotype is perpetuated by Western fear of Muslims. I think when they say Arabs are "hairy people with long beards", they are mistaking the Talibans for Arabs when in fact they are Afghans, who generally have very epic facial hair.

    In fact in another forum, a half Iraqi Bedouin member said that indigenous SW Asians have a lot of trouble growing facial hair: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape...1725&t=4193263
    Thats true, people in the west always assume we wear turbans with big beards and look like taliban members; they have difficulty distinguishing between a saudi, pakistani, indian, etc. to them we all look the same

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman92 View Post
    Im planning to do FTDNA soon, so then ill be able to post a lot of accurate results. Geno 2.0 is too far off, im relating with people all over the world and most of them are either europeans or african americans lol.



    In Arabia, the more you go north the more you see a levantine shift take place; but some yemenis obtained these features from the turks when they came to yemen, many of them married to local women and never returned to turkey so they somewhat shifted yemen ethnically, at times i wonder what some yemenis looked like before the ottomans came in; because the ottomans had a profound impact on some parts of yemen in terms of ancestry.


    They're all from Yemen and all of them are Jews except for the guy who wasn't wearing the traditional dress; the kids are also yemenite jews



    Thats true, people in the west always assume we wear turbans with big beards and look like taliban members; they have difficulty distinguishing between a saudi, pakistani, indian, etc. to them we all look the same
    Are you serious some turkish men changed the appearance of Yemenis who do not look "Southwest Asian" in your way? This is not accurate. If you would really care about the pure Arabs, you wouldnt argue with a such short and nearly unproofable impact on Southarabia. The real, massive and relevant impact on Arabia is and always was the African impact. The yemenis are not the purest Soutwest Asians. 30% of yemeni direct maternal haplogroups are of african origin. Also the african influence on yemen is the biggest of all (paternal, maternal and autosomal) in the Arabian peninsula. Arabs are at least as "hairy" as Europeans and not less. That some Yemenis are hairless is of the African genetic impact on south Arabia and not the other way around. You are twisting the facts around as you need it.. Maybe you should also re-read your own history (the history of yemen), The ottomans were loosely present in Yemen. Only a thin Stripe of the coastal western part of modern day Yemen was under ottoman control. The greater part of the so called "Yemen Province" was part of mountain Hejaz and not what is yemen nowadays. So Yemenis than and now would look the same. Some with lighter skin and some with black skin. Some with straight brown hair and some with curly dark black hair. Some with blue eyes and some with eyes like charcoal. Some with a long, defined nose and some with a short, wide nose.
    Last edited by raspberry; 12-13-2016 at 05:22 PM.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Are you serious some turkish men changed the appearance of Yemenis who do not look "Southwest Asian" in your way? This is not accurate. If you would really care about the pure Arabs, you wouldnt argue with a such short and nearly unproofable impact on Southarabia. The real, massive and relevant impact on Arabia is and was the African impact. The yemenis are not the purest Soutwest Asians. 30% of yemeni direct maternal haplogroups are of african origin. Also the african influence on yemen is the biggest of all (paternal, maternal and autosomal) in the Arabian peninsula.
    The turks clearly had a genetic influence in yemen, but that influence depends on where you go in yemen; the turks usually settled for mountainous regions, green areas and urban cities; so the influence is strong and can be seen depending on the area you're in; not every yemeni got influenced but the impact is there.

    Yemenis of today are different from the ones of the past; if we were to label one as a "pure" southwest asian in arabia then we can't label a country as a whole rather label groups of people who managed to seclude themselves for as long as they could; usually the people that managed to do that in the region according to the autosomal records, are the tribal saudis, yemenite jews, highlanders, and bedouins; again individually one person from any of these groups can be mixed but as whole these groups usually end up holding the highest arabian traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Arabs are at least as "hairy" as Europeans and not less. That some Yemenis are hairless is of the African genetic impact on south Arabia and not the other way around. You are twisting the facts around as you need it.
    Clearly if the yemenite jews, tribal saudis, etc always hold a certain look then ill probably go with that look because in this day and age according to the autosomal records they hold the highest arabian traits, if we were to go back in time things would have been different as always things change; and when it comes to anthropological stuff, things never stay the same. When i said hairless i didn't mean no hair at all, i posted the pictures of what i meant in one of the previous posts if you see it; you'll see what i mean.



    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Maybe you should also re-read your own history (the history of yemen), The ottomans were loosely present in Yemen. Only a thin Stripe of the coastal western part of modern day Yemen was under ottoman control. The greater part of the Yemen province was part of mountain Hejaz and not what is yemen nowadays. So Yemenis than and now would look the same. Some with lighter skin and some with black skin. Some with straight brown hair and some with curly dark black hair. Some with blue eyes and some with eyes like charcoal. Some with a long, defined nose and some with a short, wide nose.
    The ottomans managed areas of importance in yemen, but they did face heavy resistance from the local tribes which forced them to stay in the areas they needed, rather than waste their time and money expand their reach; but then again this brings us to the point of how many turkish soldiers never made it back to turkey for as long as 300 years, they usually melted in different parts of ''north'' yemen.

    Again im from yemen, and i lived in yemen, so i know the history of the country very well and im trying to share what i know about my country so i can benefit others and also learn from others.
    Last edited by hman92; 12-12-2016 at 01:55 PM.

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  13. #17
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    I am just saying, you have to know.. We all see what we want to see .. Ignore the pictures, cant remove them. The Ottomans were not in Southarabia because they loved its nature /or and history also not because they wanted to have Yemen under their control, but rather as a barrier against the wild tribes for the holy sites of Islam. With the pictures I wanted to show that there is an obvious phenotypic difference between Yemenite Jews and tribal Saudis. Also I saw Saudis having more then 30% Caucasian.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by raspberry; 12-18-2016 at 08:44 AM.

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    Speaking of the "caucasus" and "southwest asian" components of Dodecad k12b, it looks like in Saudi Arabians and Yemenis, the "southwest asian" component predominates, in Jordanians and Palestinians the "caucasus" slightly predominates, and in Syrians, Lebanese and Samaritans, the "caucasus" component dominates. Having already the ancient Natufian results, the "southwest asian" component seems to be the native one, and it would not be surprising thus that it has remained the largest in Southern Arabia. Perhaps the "caucasus" component was brought later during the Bronze Age, along with paternal haplogroup J?
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 03-06-2017 at 02:49 PM.

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    Since the haplogroup J1 evolved in the Caucasus/ Zagros mountains, it is not a suprise to find such a component on the Arabian Peninsula. Paleolethic Arabia was populated by another haplogroup. Besides this you can find this admixture everywhere on the Arabian Peninsula.

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