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Thread: Do I have Iranian Ancestry?

  1. #1
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    Do I have Iranian Ancestry?

    Hi all, I am a Pakistani from Punjab. My WeGene results seem to suggest that I am 8.16% Iranian. However, neither my 23andMe, nor my AncestryDNA or FtDNA seem to detect this. Only WeGene shows me as 8.16% Iranian. There is a family tree which shows that my great-great grandfather was from Larestan in southern Iran. However, only GedMatch and WeGene detect my Iranian ancestry, not 23andMe, nor AncestryDna, or even FtDNA. Here is my WeGene result.

    IranianMoe.jpg

    What do you think?

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  3. #2
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    It's definitely possible, although I'm not sure which calculator would be best for showing potential Iranian ancestry, maybe some of the other members could help.

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    Thanks for getting back. Do you have Iranian ancestry? Are you from Afghanistan? Your Y Haplogroup seems to suggest a Turkic origin?

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    Seems L1a1 is most common in South Asia, particularly Western India and Southern Pakistan; but it is also found in Southern Iran -- so it's possible.

    Y-DNA haplogroup L
    is found at low frequencies in the Middle East and Europe as paragroup L-M317 (L1b*, originally L2*), subgroup L-M349 (L1b1, originally L2a) and subgroup L-L595 (L2), and at significant frequencies in South Asia as subgroups L-M27 (L1a1, formerly L1a and originally L1) and L-M357 (L1a2, formerly L1c and originally L3).

    (http://isogg.org/tree/2015/ISOGG_HapgrpL15.html)
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...L1a1_.28M27.29)

    There is a blog on this, I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting:
    Pakistan and India - Present Day Home of L1a1 and L1a2

    L1a splits again into two sub clades. The split occurred around 17,400 years ago. L1a1, as defined by SNP M27 (on older nomenclature as still used by 23andMe, this was formerly L1*) is mainly found in India, particularly South West India, and in Sri Lanka, where it has been projected onto 15% of men. It is however, also found outside of India, in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan, and Iran. This is perhaps the most populous modern day L sub clade, found in 14.5% of Indian males.
    L1a and L1a1 (L-M27) at Birds Eye Cave, Armenia 6161 years before present.

    Ancient Y DNA from the Copper Age has recently emerged from this location, and included L1a, and L1a1. This might suggest, that although very successful today in India and Pakistan, that it has a Western Asian origin.
    L1a2 as defined by SNP M357 (on older nomenclature as still used by 23andMe, this was formerly L3*). This sub clade is mainly found in Pakistan, but also Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, The Chechen Republic, Tajikistan, India, and Afghanistan.
    So, the L1a sub clades - spreading down into Southern Asia, and accounting for potentially millions of Y Men there. Far more than any other branches of Y Haplogroup L. However, Southern Asia is unlikely to be the origin of L. That origin is more likely, as stated earlier, to be the place with the most diversity in branches. That points more towards again towards Western Asia. It's just that ancient carriers of L, appear to have been particularly successful in Southern Asia, and to have fathered more sons there.

    (http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-h...-resource-page)


    If old noir black & white photography tickles your fancy: Hidden Content
    [I do, respectfully, ask that one doesn't repost, rehost, copy, save, or share the family photos -- such old personal family photos are rare in South Asia, and I would like to share them with those who are curious; I hope I do not regret the decision. The rest of the pictures are publically available online, so do with as you like!]

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Seems L1a1 is most common in South Asia, particularly Western India and Southern Pakistan; but it is also found in Southern Iran -- so it's possible.

    Y-DNA haplogroup L
    is found at low frequencies in the Middle East and Europe as paragroup L-M317 (L1b*, originally L2*), subgroup L-M349 (L1b1, originally L2a) and subgroup L-L595 (L2), and at significant frequencies in South Asia as subgroups L-M27 (L1a1, formerly L1a and originally L1) and L-M357 (L1a2, formerly L1c and originally L3).

    (http://isogg.org/tree/2015/ISOGG_HapgrpL15.html)
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...L1a1_.28M27.29)

    There is a blog on this, I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting:
    Pakistan and India - Present Day Home of L1a1 and L1a2

    L1a splits again into two sub clades. The split occurred around 17,400 years ago. L1a1, as defined by SNP M27 (on older nomenclature as still used by 23andMe, this was formerly L1*) is mainly found in India, particularly South West India, and in Sri Lanka, where it has been projected onto 15% of men. It is however, also found outside of India, in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan, and Iran. This is perhaps the most populous modern day L sub clade, found in 14.5% of Indian males.
    L1a and L1a1 (L-M27) at Birds Eye Cave, Armenia 6161 years before present.

    Ancient Y DNA from the Copper Age has recently emerged from this location, and included L1a, and L1a1. This might suggest, that although very successful today in India and Pakistan, that it has a Western Asian origin.
    L1a2 as defined by SNP M357 (on older nomenclature as still used by 23andMe, this was formerly L3*). This sub clade is mainly found in Pakistan, but also Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, The Chechen Republic, Tajikistan, India, and Afghanistan.
    So, the L1a sub clades - spreading down into Southern Asia, and accounting for potentially millions of Y Men there. Far more than any other branches of Y Haplogroup L. However, Southern Asia is unlikely to be the origin of L. That origin is more likely, as stated earlier, to be the place with the most diversity in branches. That points more towards again towards Western Asia. It's just that ancient carriers of L, appear to have been particularly successful in Southern Asia, and to have fathered more sons there.

    (http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-h...-resource-page)


    Thanks for getting back to me Khanabadoshi. My Iranian ancestry is through my father's mother's line, so I don't think that it would have an impact on my Paternal Haplogroup. I am actually quite surprised that my Haplogroup is L1a1, since I am from a high caste. My family is from Gujrat, Pakistan. My father is a Rajput Janjua and my mother is a Gujjar. Also, GedMatch seems to confirm my high caste ancestry as I have only 13.89% ASI ancestry (Although it fluctuates between the calculators. In fact, I have less ASI/South Asian ancestry on the calculators than most Sindhis, Punjabis, and a few Pathans. Regardless, I don't think that my Haplogroup is from a recent South Indian ancestor. Even on Dna.land my Dravidian ancestry was only 12%. Perhaps it could have come from the Indus Valley Civilization, although I am not sure about this. If you don't mind me asking, what were your 23andMe results? I do not look Dravidian in any way, nor do any of my relatives resemble Tamils. I don't understand how L1a1 ended up in Northern Pakistan, it's a mystery to me. Add in to that I am from a family of Lambardars in North Pakistan, my Haplogroup makes no sense.
    Last edited by Pad-i Shah e Hind; 11-16-2016 at 11:09 PM.

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pad-i Shah e Hind View Post
    Thanks for getting back to me Khanabadoshi. My Iranian ancestry is through my father's mother's line, so I don't think that it would have an impact on my Paternal Haplogroup. I am actually quite surprised that my Haplogroup is L1a1, since I am from a high caste. My family is from Gujrat, Pakistan. My father is a Rajput Janjua and my mother is a Gujjar. Also, GedMatch seems to confirm my high caste ancestry as I have only 13.89% ASI ancestry (Although it fluctuates between the calculators. In fact, I have less ASI/South Asian ancestry on the calculators than most Sindhis, Punjabis, and a few Pathans. Regardless, I don't think that my Haplogroup is from a recent South Indian ancestor. Even on Dna.land my Dravidian ancestry was only 12%. Perhaps it could have come from the Indus Valley Civilization, although I am not sure about this. If you don't mind me asking, what were your 23andMe results? I do not look Dravidian in any way, nor do any of my relatives resemble Tamils. I don't understand how L1a1 ended up in Northern Pakistan, it's a mystery to me. Add in to that I am from a family of Lambardars in North Pakistan, my Haplogroup makes no sense.
    Oh yes, if it was through your father's mother's line it wouldn't affect your haplogroups. Perhaps you should test your father. The ASI/ASE scores vary a lot from calculator to calculator, so it's best to compare ratios only between results of the same calculator and not cross-calculator. Would you mind posting some Gedrosia, puntDNAL, MDLP calculator results? I have a half Rajput half Kashmiri we could compare you too. In fact, we have a lot of S/SC Asian and Iranian members here, so you have a lot to compare to. You were asking about Kaido, he is Pakistani Pashtun. We have some DIY calculators that aren't on Gedmatch like Iran N K6 and ANE K6 that are newer and might provide a better comparison. If you know how to use DIY calculators give it a try.

    Also, L1a1 doesn't seem to be specifically a South Indian marker, it is seen in significant numbers in Southern Pakistan (aka Sindh) and Western India (aka Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujurat). Thus, I don't think it is a very surprising haplogroup if your father's line is Rajput. That being said, users like Parasar are much more well-versed in South Asian haplogroups -- perhaps he will chime in. I'll see what I can dig up about your mtDNA.



    My 23andme results:

    South Asian 94.9%
    Middle Eastern & North African 1.9%
    European 1.6%
    East Asian & Native American 0.9%
    Unassigned 0.7%

    My FTDNA results:


    If you want to see specific gedmatch calculators for comparison, feel free to ask. I'm sure others will post theirs too to give you an idea.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 11-17-2016 at 12:59 PM.
    If old noir black & white photography tickles your fancy: Hidden Content
    [I do, respectfully, ask that one doesn't repost, rehost, copy, save, or share the family photos -- such old personal family photos are rare in South Asia, and I would like to share them with those who are curious; I hope I do not regret the decision. The rest of the pictures are publically available online, so do with as you like!]

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  12. #7
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    Post your Harappa results. That calculator is not good, because well Southern Iranians are have a lot of Iran_N ancestry , that "Iranian" I am guessing is either Anatolian Farmer related or a SW Asian component which peaks in Peninsular Arabs.

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    Wegene used Iranians from Tehran as references for their "Iranian" component. Due to Tehran being cosmopolitan, it is hard to figure out what those individual backgrounds were, but I am guessing that they were closely alligned with Kurds-Baloch, because my Iraqi Kurd sample scored 73% Iranian, and an Iranian Baloch scored 99% Iranian.

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  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Oh yes, if it was through your father's mother's line it wouldn't affect your haplogroups. Perhaps you should test your father. The ASI/ASE scores vary a lot from calculator to calculator, so it's best to compare ratios only between results of the same calculator and not cross-calculator. Would you mind posting some Gedrosia, puntDNAL, MDLP calculator results? I have a half Rajput half Kashmiri we could compare you too. In fact, we have a lot of S/SC Asian and Iranian members here, so you have a lot to compare to. You were asking about Kaido, he is Pakistani Pashtun. We have some DIY calculators that aren't on Gedmatch like Iran N K6 and ANE K6 that are newer and might provide a better comparison. If you know how to use DIY calculators give it a try.

    Also, L1a1 doesn't seem to be specifically a South Indian marker, it is seen in significant numbers in Southern Pakistan (aka Sindh) and Western India (aka Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujurat). Thus, I don't think it is a very surprising haplogroup if your father's line is Rajput. That being said, users like Parasar are much more well-versed in South Asian haplogroups -- perhaps he will chime in. I'll see what I can dig up about your mtDNA.



    My 23andme results:

    South Asian 94.9%
    Middle Eastern & North African 1.9%
    European 1.6%
    East Asian & Native American 0.9%
    Unassigned 0.7%

    My FTDNA results:


    If you want to see specific gedmatch calculators for comparison, feel free to ask. I'm sure others will post theirs too to give you an idea.

    My 23andMe results were as follows:

    South Asian: 99.1%
    European: 0.5%
    East Asian: 0.3%
    Middle Eastern: 0.1%

    Paternal Haplogroup: L1a1
    Maternal Haplogroup: G3b

    My FamilytreeDNA Results (Only Family finder and MyOrigins):

    68% Central Asian
    32% South Asian


    I don't know why you are suggesting that my Paternal ancestors came from India. This is not the case. I am from Gujrat, Pakistan and we were in what is now Pakistan for hundreds of years, and none of my ancestors migrated to Pakistan during partition. Also, I am from a high caste Zamindar family, and my great grandfather owned one hundred acres of land in a village in Gujrat. Perhaps there may have been a migration from India before, but not in the past 500 years as I have my family history documented. I will say one thing however, and that is that in our village in Pakistan, there are low caste people who look Tamil and Dravidian in appearance, and they have been there for a very long time. We do not have any sort of relationship with them and do not intermarry. It could be possible that one of my maternal ancestors in my paternal line had an illicit relationship with one of these Dravidians, we call them "Massalis". I would assume that these low caste Dravidians are around 60-70% South Asian and 30-40% Central Asian and carry Paternal haplogroup L1a1. Also, L1a1 is not found in high numbers among the Rajputs. Rajput is a high caste, and also L1a1 is a predominantly Dravidian haplogroup in case you didn't know. This lineage is only found among 0.5% to 2% of northern Pakistanis (low castes mainly), and none of my ancestors are Sindhi. It's not found in high numbers in western India (2-6%), below is the map of its distribution:

    http://gentis.ru/img/y/M27.gif

    My MtDNA is Central Asian/East Asian in origin and is from the very rare MtDNA haplogroup G.

    Yes, I can share my results. All are from my 23andMe results, but I also have AncestryDNA and FtDNA GedMatch kits as well. They are almost the same. Would you mind doing the same?

    MDLP K23b
    Amerindian: 1.98
    Ancestral_Altaic: 6.00
    South_Central_Asian: 39.80
    Arctic: -
    South_Indian: 33.75
    Australoid: 0.11
    Austronesian: -
    Caucasian: -
    Archaic_Human: -
    East_African: -
    East_Siberian: -
    European_Early_Farmers:2.36
    Khoisan: -
    Melano_Polynesian: 0.79
    Archaic_African: 0.11
    Near_East 3.80
    North_African: -
    Paleo_Siberian: -
    African_Pygmy: -
    South_East_Asian: -
    Subsaharian: -
    Tungus-Altaic: 1.05
    European_Hunters_Gatherers: 1.80

    MDLP World-22 Admixture Proportions
    Pygmy: -
    West-Asian: 39.76
    North-European-Mesolithic: 3.82
    Indo-Tibetan: 1.74
    Mesoamerican: 1.48
    Arctic-Amerind: -
    South-America_Amerind: -
    Indian: 33.11
    North-Siberean: -
    Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic: 0.49
    Samoedic: 1.88
    Indo-Iranian: 8.50
    East-Siberean: -
    North-East-European: 5.02
    South-African: -
    North-Amerind: 0.50
    Sub-Saharian: -
    East-South-Asian: -
    Near_East: 2.01
    Melanesian: 1.28
    Paleo-Siberian: 0.41
    Austronesian: -

    MDLP World Admixture Proportions
    Caucaus_Parsia: 42.89
    Middle_East: 5.47
    Indian: 36.98
    South_and_West_European: 1.99
    Melanesian: 1.01
    Sub_Saharian: -
    North_and_East_European: 8.70
    Arctic_Amerind: 1.31
    East_Asian: -
    Paleo_African: -
    Mesoamerican: 0.55
    North_Asian: 1.10

    puntDNAL K10 Ancient Admixture Proportions
    ASI: 39.35
    Sub-Saharan: 0.48
    Oceanian: 1.47
    Beringian: 2.20
    ENF: 9.25
    CHG: 38.23
    Siberian: 3.70
    E_Asian: -
    WHG: 5.32
    Amerindian: -

    HarappaWorld Admixture Proportions
    S-Indian: 31.17
    Baloch: 43.71
    Caucasian: 10.80
    NE-Euro: 6.88
    SE-Asian: -
    Siberian: 0.82
    NE-Asian: -
    Papuan: 0.66
    American: 1.16
    Beringian: 0.88
    Mediterranean: 0.26
    SW-Asian: 3.43
    San: -
    E-African: -
    Pygmy: 0.23
    W-African: -

    Eurasia K9 ASI Admixture Proportions
    SE_Asian: 7.14
    Early_Neolithic_Farmers: 4.16
    SW_Asian: 8.82
    Ancestral_South_Indian: 13.79
    Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer: 7.70
    WHG: 4.06
    Siberian_E_Asian: 2.74
    Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer: 51.50
    W_African: 0.10

    Eurogenes K36 Admixture Proportions
    Amerindian0: 0.21
    Arabian : -
    Armenian: 4.70
    Basque: -
    Central_African: -
    Central_Euro: 0.64
    East_African: -
    East_Asian: -
    East_Balkan: -
    East_Central_Asian: -
    East_Central_Euro: -
    East_Med: -
    Eastern_Euro: -
    Fennoscandian: -
    French: -
    Iberian: -
    Indo-Chinese: -
    Italian: -
    Malayan: -
    Near_Eastern: -
    North_African: -
    North_Atlantic: -
    North_Caucasian: 9.16
    North_Sea: 0.94
    Northeast_African: -
    Oceanian: -
    Omotic: 0.07
    Pygmy: -
    Siberian: -
    South_Asian: 31.29
    South_Central_Asian: 51.19
    South_Chinese: -
    Volga-Ural: 1.80
    West_African: -
    West_Caucasian: -
    West_Med: -

    Wait, how can I use the DIY calculators? I was wondering how people were accessing calculators on GedMatch not listed in the options. Would you mind giving me your GedMatch ID? I can give you mine, it makes things a lot easier. I didn't go through all of these calculators, so I guess that I am a bit more South Indian than I thought, but not more than the average high caste Pathan or Punjabi. The thing is, most of the Punjabis, Pathans, and Sindhis doing these tests are from high castes, so that is why they show less South Indian DNA than the average Indian. I bet if the lower caste Pakistanis did these tests, they would have significantly more South Indian DNA. I think that both Eurasia K9 and puntDNAL exaggerate the amount of South Indian DNA present in me. Eurasia only says 13.79, and I am the closest to a Pakistani Pashtun in the oracle; whereas, puntDNAL Ancient K10 gives me 39.35, and I score the closest to a Pakistani Pashtun (Pathan) again. It may be possible that my "Iranian" ancestor may have been a Baloch and not from Larestan, as the tradition states. The Baloch are classified as South Asian on 23andMe. I think that may be why WeGene showed me as being 8.16% Iranian.
    Last edited by Pad-i Shah e Hind; 11-17-2016 at 08:51 PM.

  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Post your Harappa results. That calculator is not good, because well Southern Iranians are have a lot of Iran_N ancestry , that "Iranian" I am guessing is either Anatolian Farmer related or a SW Asian component which peaks in Peninsular Arabs.
    Harappa results have been posted, look at my reply to Khanabadoshi.

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