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Thread: Familial migration of the Neolithic contrasts massive male migration during Bronze Ag

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy Andrews View Post
    No one should be getting the idea Steppe people migrated with only or a vast majority of men. One method of this paper suggests essentially only Steppe men came which is absolutely impossible. Just look at LNBA European mtDNA. I gathered their frequency of Steppe-related mtDNA last year, they have about half as much as Yamnaya.

    I can't imagine lone Steppe men forcing themselves upon MN villages alone and making the genetic impact they did. Men alone can't change language btw. Think about it, who is contact with babies learning language the most, women or men? Steppe people(madeup of men and women) made settlements in Europe, their men didn't immigrate into native populations and then make themselves the rulers that's crazy. Steppe communities, with all ages and genders, must have migrated there's no other possibility imo.

    Quote from paper,


    Or more likely there were continuing waves of MN women marrying Steppe men and moving into their husband's villages.
    the zulu army in the 19th century marched into tanzania or uganda or anywhere north............killed all the men and impregnated the women
    source; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_of_the_Spears

    the same could happen to the early neolithic farmers of Central europe ...........where common mtdna where found with uncommon ydna

    Father's Mothers Ydna ......R-S22778 ........Merlengo Veneto
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b35.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Wife's Ydna ..........R-DF99
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy Andrews View Post
    No one should be getting the idea Steppe people migrated with only or a vast majority of men. One method of this paper suggests essentially only Steppe men came which is absolutely impossible. Just look at LNBA European mtDNA. I gathered their frequency of Steppe-related mtDNA last year, they have about half as much as Yamnaya.

    I can't imagine lone Steppe men forcing themselves upon MN villages alone and making the genetic impact they did. Men alone can't change language btw. Think about it, who is contact with babies learning language the most, women or men? Steppe people(madeup of men and women) made settlements in Europe, their men didn't immigrate into native populations and then make themselves the rulers that's crazy. Steppe communities, with all ages and genders, must have migrated there's no other possibility imo.

    Quote from paper,

    (...)

    Or more likely there were continuing waves of MN women marrying Steppe men and moving into their husband's villages.
    So it seems that Goldberg and Rosenberg et al. underestimated Steppe female immigration.

    But when it comes to your spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...LYE/edit#gid=0

    Only U5a, U4, U2e, T1a, J2b1a, J1b1a1, I, N1a1b, H-16362, H2a1 and H2a2b were counted as Steppe-related there. What about U2d2, U5b2a1a1, K1b, T2a1, T2c1, H6a1, H5, H13, J2b1, W6, W3a1a, X2b, R1, C4a3 - weren't these mtDNA haplogroups also Steppe-related? On the other hand, it seems that only U5a1 was typically Steppe (U5a2 was not) and only I3 (not all of I), but all of N1a1 and J1b (not just N1a1b and J1b1a1).

    Of course only haplos common in the Steppe but uncommon among European Farmers can be securely labeled as Steppe-related.

    ===============

    Yamnaya mtDNA haplogroups:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...nd-Corded-Ware

    Afanasievo, Catacomb, Poltavka mtDNA should also be included.

    Corded Ware mtDNA was already partially of MN Farmer origin.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 10-02-2016 at 10:15 AM.

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    I5a

    Identification is problematic, in Sammy's Excel file and probably in the paper itself (I have not really read it).

    U5a has probably originated in Europe in the Upper Paleolithic, and there is a lot of U5(xU5b) in Neolithic and Mesolithic contexts. The Yamnaya U5a1 seems to be U5a1d, U5a1i and U5a1 with 16399 (probably U5a1a1a1) and with 16270 16362, so not all U5a in Western and Northern Europe is Yamnaya-related as also Tomenable pointed out. U4a is probably eastern, but there is still some U4 in Europe in Mesolithic and Neolithic contexts. H6 (16362) was frequent in Yamnaya, but there is also H with 16363 in Mediterranean Neolithic. J2b1a has been detected in Neolithic Schöningen and TRB and in Gökhem Sweden who was fully Neolithic. T1a has been detected in Starčevo Hungary, LBKT Hungary and in Minoan BA Ayios Charalambos Cave in Crete. I1a has been found in Yamnaya, Unetice, Bell Beaker and Srubnaya, but it is not in the list.

    Yamnaya mtDNA is not completely different from the European Neolithic mtDNA, and it is not easy to tell the origin of a haplotype detected in BA European burials. Of course, this is possible if we get the full details of a haplotype, but at the moment that is not the case, and there is lot of Neolithic mtDNA data that is defined only as H, J and T etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I1a has been found in Yamnaya, Unetice, Bell Beaker and Srubnaya, but it is not in the list.
    It could also be I3d:

    https://s31.postimg.org/h12f4uxyh/CWC_YAM_mt_DNA.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy Andrews View Post
    Or more likely there were continuing waves of MN women marrying Steppe men and moving into their husband's villages.
    This seems like most likely scenario, there was a journal about this few months ago. Women in CW were highly mobile, moving from the village of their birth to another, and perhaps taking their dietary (farmer) preferences with them.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0155083

    http://www.archaeology.org/news/4498...women-mobility

    The authors suggest that their evidence of varied diet and mobility supports the possibility of a stable system of female exogamy, where women married outside of their social group and moved to their husbands' settlements, in Corded Ware Culture.
    Last edited by Observer; 10-02-2016 at 12:37 PM.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Looks like all the women stayed behind in the crimea and the north Caucasus ...............to become what the Greeks historians note as the ...........Amazons ( or , the land of Women )
    So the women left behind in 3000 BC lived long enough to be found by the Greeks in the 8th century BC? I don't think so somehow. Here is what I say about the Amazons in AJ.

    On the steppe east of the Don River early Greek travellers located the Sauromatians, later known as Sarmatians. These were yet more Iranian-speakers - related in language and culture to the Scythians settled on the European steppe. The Sarmatians crossed the Don at the end of the 4th century BC and surged westward, subjugating the Scythians and giving the new name of Sarmatia to the European steppe.

    Herodotus had a wondrous tale to tell of the Sauromatians. He had heard that they were the descendants of a band of young Scythian men who had taken to wife a group of Amazons who insisted on retaining their way of life: hunting, riding and going to war. Perceiving the potential for conflict if the combined group settled with the other Scythians between the Danube and the Don, they found a territory for themselves east of the Don.

    The fighting female Amazons, living without men, appear in Greek literature from the 8th century BC in so confusing a variety of locations and stories that they are often regarded as pure invention, the symbolic enemy of Greek patriarchy. Yet the graves of warrior women are found on the European steppe, one of the two places most strongly associated with the Amazons by ancient Greek authors. The other location was beside the Thermodon River, which is modern Terme in Turkey. According to one account the Amazons lived originally beside the Don River, but moved to Themiscyra on the Thermodon on the opposite shore of the Black Sea. Herodotus reverses the flow. In his story Amazons taken prisoner by Greeks at the battle of Thermodon had drifted by ship onto the Scythian shore of the Back Sea, after overpowering their captors. To stress their foreign origin, he tells us that the Sarmatians spoke Scythian, but ungrammatically, because the Amazons had never learnt it properly. This may be the earliest account of language contact as a cause of language change.

    It is a pity that it can't be true. Certain Sarmatian women were buried with armour and weapons. Yet, contrary to the story by Herodotus, such burials do not appear only in the Volga-Ural region inhabited by the early Sarmatians, but also in the Scythian region between the Danube and the Don. In a kurgan near Akkerman contains an impressive example. The woman buried there owned bronze and silver bracelets, a bronze mirror, a necklace of glass beads and a lead spindle-whorl; so far so feminine. Yet she also had a quiver with twenty bronze arrowheads, two spear-heads, and a massive battle-belt of leather covered with iron plaques. This weaponry was not just for show. The redoubtable woman had suffered several head wounds from cutting blows, and had a bronze arrowhead lodged in her knee joint. More damaging still for the credibility of Herodotus are the warrior women of the Asian steppe. The Iron Age grave of a 16-year-old girl at Ak-Alakha in the Altai Mountains contained an iron battle axe and other weapons. Furthermore she was dressed in male attire.8 The Scythians had brought a heritage of fighting females with them from the Asian steppe.

    Some 20 per cent of Scythian-Sarmatian graves containing weapons and harness are those of women. To put it another way, 80 per cent of warrior burials were of men. This was no gender role reversal. The pattern suggests a female home guard. Greeks coming across Scythian women minding the home fires while their mobile males were away herding or raiding might have thought them a tribe without men. Imagine their surprise when apparently defenceless females whipped out weaponry in a business-like fashion. Thus are myths born.
    In short the absence of adult males that so surprised Greeks who came into occasional contact with steppe Iranian-speakers was not permanent. Or at least it was not intended to be. But Scythian raiding parties could be away for years. Herodotus (book 4, 1-3) tells a story of Scythians returning to their homeland after 28 years in part of Iran, only to find a sizeable army opposing them. After so long without their husbands, their wives had taken partners from among their male slaves. Their offspring initially resisted the return of the wanderers.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-02-2016 at 03:48 PM.

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Indo-Europeans commonly practiced polygyny, which means that one man could have many wifes.
    Where is your evidence of this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Where is your evidence of this?
    hmm............it still happens today..........what kind of question is this?

    Is it not time we force gender equality in our secular society and not accept these religious practices against women? .........I loathe this inequality

    Father's Mothers Ydna ......R-S22778 ........Merlengo Veneto
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b35.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Wife's Ydna ..........R-DF99
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    So the women left behind in 3000 BC lived long enough to be found by the Greeks in the 8th century BC? I don't think so somehow. Here is what I say about the Amazons in AJ.



    In short the absence of adult males that so surprised Greeks who came into occasional contact with steppe Iranian-speakers was not permanent. Or at least it was not intended to be. But Scythian raiding parties could be away for years. Herodotus (book 4, 1-3) tells a story of Scythians returning to their homeland after 28 years in part of Iran, only to find a sizeable army opposing them. After so long without their husbands, their wives had taken partners from among their male slaves. Their offspring initially resisted the return of the wanderers.
    Neither do I believe the Ancient Greek historians

    Father's Mothers Ydna ......R-S22778 ........Merlengo Veneto
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b35.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Wife's Ydna ..........R-DF99
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    ..it still happens today..........what kind of question is this?
    Anthropologists have recorded a variety of marital/partnering habits of human cultures across the world now or in the recent past. Herodotus noted a variety just in the areas of the world with which he was familiar in the 5th century BC. It is simply not the case that polygyny has been the norm in all human societies for the whole of recorded time, without exception, so we could safely assume it in prehistory.

    So we would need some specific evidence in the language of PIE itself. Laura Fortunato, Reconstructing the History of Marriage Strategies in Indo-European–Speaking Societies: Monogamy and Polygyny (2011), concluded:

    Explanations for the emergence of monogamous marriage have focused on the cross-cultural distribution of marriage strategies, thus failing to account for their history. In this paper I reconstruct the pattern of change in marriage strategies in the history of societies speaking Indo-European languages, using cross-cultural data in the systematic and explicitly historical framework afforded by the phylogenetic comparative approach.

    The analysis provides evidence in support of Proto-Indo-European monogamy, and that this pattern may have extended back to Proto-Indo-Hittite. These reconstructions push the origin of monogamous marriage into prehistory, well beyond the earliest instances documented in the historical record; this, in turn, challenges notions that the cross-cultural distribution of monogamous marriage reflects features of social organization typically associated with Eurasian societies, and with “societal complexity” and “modernization” more generally. I discuss implications of these findings in the context of the archaeological and genetic evidence on prehistoric social organization.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-02-2016 at 07:05 PM.

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