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Thread: Familial migration of the Neolithic contrasts massive male migration during Bronze Ag

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Am I right that there is no way to know which sample is which in figure 2?
    Not on that figure I don't think, but the individual ancestry proportions are listed by sample on the supplementary tables near the end of the preprint.

    I don't know if there's a large enough sample size that you can meaningfully break it down by time period or culture though.

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    The information you provided helps a lot to understand the result. In the Corded Ware samples there probably is a lot of female Neolithic input. Unetice is clearly more recent than Corded Ware, and is less eastern and more local. It could be argued that most of their steppe ancestry is from gene flow from the Corded Ware females and the like.

    However, on the basis of this paper, we do not know how far this steppe is.

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     leonardo (10-03-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I would like to check that that I have understood this paper properly. So I am taking the risky tactic of posting my understanding.
    They compared the steppe x chromosome with the steppe autosomal and found there was considerably less Steppe X in subsequent BA generations. So from that you can infer the relative proportions of men and women who migrated and the answer is between 5:1 to 14:1and the total steppe ancestry need a continuous on going migration of steppe males. But it does not say for how long but possibly 40 generations or 1000years?
    The female Central Europeans were approximately stationary and were the mates of the incoming males. half of each generation's children were fathered by the incomers. That implies a complete change of power and hence total conquest, and effective dominance of reproduction considerably more than happened in England after the Norman conquest where the Normans took power for 100s of years but had minimal impact on DNA.
    Contrastingly the Neolithic migration was by a mixed band of migrants.

    If you go from this paper to Haak (2015) where he proposes complete changes on population for the Neolithic, but the Hgs recover and after the BA becomes modern Europe, then that is 50% correct for the YDNA on the Ba transition but the mtDNA should be barely affected. Haak et al's modelling on make up of all the modern populations using the autosomal data, but from this paper it gives too much weight to the male contribution (by virtue of the number of chromosomes).
    Have I got this the right way up?
    Yes, this is more or less what this paper says.

    But I don't think they needed 40 generations to fix the Steppe admixture in BA people. It is also difficult to imagine some "pure" Steppe men coming at each generation to make 50% of the childs during 1000 years.

    I think the model must be recalculated with more samples, and we will see what happened.

    But I also think that it means that several groups of Steppe people took power in Central Europe, and this migration was not a singular event but occured an indertiminate number of times.

    It could also be guessed that there were some regional differences, in Central Europe, but also in all Europe, with perhaps different stories. Corded Ware were far more Steppic, meaning perhaps a different story, with more Steppe women.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-03-2016 at 07:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Plague may have facilitated rapid expansion of Yamnaya from the East.
    We also have the earlier expansion of CHG from the South and Caucasus and the rapid expansion of Bell Beaker from the West as described by Desideri.

    http://www.oxbowbooks.com/dbbc/when-...l-beakers.html

    Bronze Age skeletons were earliest plague victims
    Deadly disease suspected to have driven mass migrations across Europe and Asia.

    Ewen Callaway
    22 October 2015
    Article toolsRights & Permissions

    Mikhail V. Khalyapin
    Bronze Age skeletons, including this one from Bulanovo (modern-day Russia) that dates back to 2000BC, contain DNA from the bacterium that causes plague.
    The Black Death notoriously swept through Europe in 1347, killing an estimated 50 million people. Yet DNA from Bronze Age human skeletons now shows that the plague had first emerged at least as early as 3,000 bc. The earlier outbreak probably did not spread as ferociously, the analysis reveals — but it may nonetheless have driven mass migrations across Europe and Asia1.

    http://www.nature.com/news/bronze-ag...ictims-1.18633
    "This chapter presents both the different regions and samples integrated in this research. While far from representing the entire range of variability in the Bell Beaker complex, an attempt has been made to cover a large portion of this variability. Five regions representing five different portraits of the Bell Beaker occupation during the 3rd millennium BC have been chosen....."

    East: Bohemia, 500 individuals in 64 sites.
    East: Hungary, 100 individuals in 15 sites.
    South: S France, 700 individuals in 5 sites.
    South: N Spain, 180 individuals in 18 sites.
    Center: Switzerland: 520 individuals in 8 sites.

    "More than 255’000 observations were recorded on more than 2000 individuals....."

    "Thus, to understand the modalities for the establishment of the Bell Beaker phenomenon, we must dissociate the diffusion of southern elements from the exogamic diffusion of women in the eastern domain into two distinct points in times. On the basis of currently available radiocarbon dates suggesting a southwest-northeast gradient for the expansion of the Bell Beaker, we propose the following:
    Migration of groups of Bell Beaker individuals from the Iberian Peninsula toward the east, while the eastern domain is still occupied by the Corded Ware culture.
    Part of the Corded Ware on the edge of the phenomenon was individualized and adopted, by borrowing, some of the southern Bell Beaker traditions. Diffusion of this new society – the Beakers – continued toward the east. At the same time, certain eastern elements were diffused toward the west....."

    Lots of discussion on male and female impact on migration patterns.

    https://archive-ouverte.unige.ch/fil...tachment01.pdf
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

  8. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    I don't think we have enough have ancient samples to characterize with any certainty the distribution of mtDNA haplogroups in the Steppe, eastern Europe and western Europe 5000 years ago. Also, the slow mutation rate makes mtDNA very imprecise for describing migrations on the time scale of the last several thousand years.
    We have enough ancient mtDNA the migrations of A. Neolithic Anatolians and B. Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Yes, this is more or less what this paper says.

    But I don't think they needed 40 generations to fix the Steppe admixture in BA people. It is also difficult to imagine some "pure" Steppe men coming at each generation to make 50% of the childs during 1000 years.

    I think the model must be recalculated with more samples, and we will see what happened.

    But I also think that it means that several groups of Steppe people took power in Central Europe, and this migration was not a singular event but occured an indertiminate number of times.

    It could also be guessed that there were some regional differences, in Central Europe, but also in all Europe, with perhaps different stories. Corded Ware were far more Steppic, meaning perhaps a different story, with more Steppe women.
    There needs two generations for the paternal X chromosome (and thus Steppes) is gone. But the daughters of the first generation must not have descendants, or return to the Steppes.

    I wonder if we can see the difference in the modern European populations.
    Unfortunately, the X chromosome is not integrated in the admixture calculators.
    23andMe test it in autosomal, but don't recognize the components of the Steppes
    Y haplogroup: R1b: L21+ DF13+ (L1335- DF21- DF49- FGC11134- L513- Z251- Z253- CTS1751- CTS3386- DF41- FGC5496- L371- MC14- S1026- S1051- S16264- Z16500- Z16502- Z255-)
    For my autosomal analyses, see Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    There needs two generations for the paternal X chromosome (and thus Steppes) is gone. But the daughters of the first generation must not have descendants, or return to the Steppes.

    I wonder if we can see the difference in the modern European populations.
    Unfortunately, the X chromosome is not integrated in the admixture calculators.
    23andMe test it in autosomal, but don't recognize the components of the Steppes
    that's exactly why more than one migration is needed. A single event is statiscally impossible.

    23andme want to test the last 500 years. The Steppe admixture is a bit too old for them.

    but we also need more ancient samples, because it will be needed to know in which kind of european population the Steppe people settled.

    Some surprise are expected, as for the East Baltic genomes (which are not EHG, not SHG, but WHG, dixit David).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-04-2016 at 09:46 AM.

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    Last edited by Inigo Montoya; 03-15-2017 at 02:32 PM.

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  15. #69
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    Too bad for all those friends who love to speculate on the basis of fragile results. As my normand grand-mother used to tell : " Réfléchis et te tais!". Think and keep quiet. Wise advice.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  16. #70
    And MtDNA H6a1a and H6a1b should be added to Steppe MtDNA

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