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Thread: Indians with pashtun ancestry?

  1. #21
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    Anyways this thread was about indians with pashtun ancestry, not how eastern afghans are "pashtunized" which is an ignorant thing to say. You're also implying that Eastern afghans look more like NW Indics than like other Afghans, when they look far closer to other Afghans.
    Last edited by Heteorchromia; 09-23-2016 at 09:29 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heteorchromia View Post
    Lol, Afghans and Iranians don't have a stark difference in South asian genetics, take a look at a recent Iranian neotholic calculator and you'll see that pashtuns and Iranians score near the same percentile on average. Also, the reason for the genetic continuum is because of Iranian neotholic. The more south you go, the less of it you have. The average pashtun is going to be about just as far from a North Indian genetically as he is from a Chechen. Iranian Neolithic doesn't count as "Indian," that is a West asian component like Caucasus Hunter Gatherer. There has never been enough indians to say sat that eastern afghans all admixed with Indians. Are you gonna start claiming all Iranians have arabic ancestry from the arabic invasion of Iran too? Also that's your problem, youre looking at OLD calculators, not new ones. I also heard harrapa was a terrible calculator.

    And what do you mean they were apart of the Industry Valley culture? That's not even a term that applies to Afghans.
    Iranian Neolithic reaches massive proportions across the entire area. It's actually Chalcholithic Iranian admixture (more similar to modern Iranian or the "Caucasus" component you saw in old calculators) which is very useful for geographical purposes (otherwise you can call everyone Iranians).

    And the gradient I refer to above there is based off modern South Indians, whose West Asian admixture more resembles post-Neolithic Iranian rather than Neolithic Iranian (the latter is better approximated by that Baloch component). There's not a lot of ANE in the S-Indian component, not nearly as much as in the Baloch component.

    If you switch the calculators, there's still a continuum/gradient. My point being, there is a continuum across Afghanistan and South Asia in any calculator and that drops off sharply outside of Afghanistan.

    And I don't know anyone who's saying Afghans all mixed with Indians. That's a nonsensical statement and anyone making such a statement needs to define "Indian" first.

    I also heard harrapa was a terrible calculator.
    There's only a few calculators that can be considered "bad" and that's if they failed to do what they need to: distinguish populations along lines of modern genetic drift. HarappaWorld is successful in this regard (very much so, actually) and unlike others has a massive 400+ volunteer individual database which makes it, by far, the most useful calculator for South Asians.

    And what do you mean they were apart of the Industry Valley culture? That's not even a term that applies to Afghans.
    It's not a term that even applies to modern Indians because it predates the ethnogenesis of both groups but these are the Neolithic-era inhabitants of the region:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation

    The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) was a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India.[2] Along with ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia it was one of three early civilisations of the Old World, and of the three, the most widespread.[3] It flourished in the basins of the Indus River, which flows through the length of Pakistan, and along a system of perennial, mostly monsoon-fed, rivers that once coursed in the vicinity of the seasonal Ghaggar-Hakra river in northwest India and eastern Pakistan.[4][5][6] Aridification of this region during the 3rd millennium BCE may have been the initial spur for the urbanisation associated with the civilisation, but eventually also reduced the water supply enough to cause the civilisation's demise, and to scatter its population eastward.[7][8][9]

    At its peak, the Indus Civilisation may have had a population of over five million people.[10]
    Outposts of the Indus Valley civilisation were excavated as far west as Sutkagan Dor in Pakistani Balochistan, as far north as at Shortugai on the Amu Darya (the river's ancient name was Oxus) in current Afghanistan, as far east as at Alamgirpur, Uttar Pradesh, India and as far south as at Malwan, in modern-day Surat, Gujarat, India.[22]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortugai
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J-Y978*) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a (FTDNA Kit 329180)
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Iranian Neolithic reaches massive proportions across the entire area. It's actually Chalcholithic Iranian admixture (more similar to modern Iranian or the "Caucasus" component you saw in old calculators) which is very useful for geographical purposes (otherwise you can call everyone Iranians).
    .

    Yes exactly, and neither are anything "indian."

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    And the gradient I refer to above there is based off modern South Indians, whose West Asian admixture more resembles post-Neolithic Iranian rather than Neolithic Iranian (the latter is better approximated by that Baloch component). There's not a lot of ANE in the S-Indian component, not nearly as much as in the Baloch component.
    Pashtuns are in no gradient with south indians. The continuum is simply there because they have less Iranian Neolithic as you go further south. Arabs and Europeans form a continuum about the same size as Pashtuns - South Indians as well, so are they the same too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    If you switch the calculators, there's still a continuum/gradient. My point being, there is a continuum across Afghanistan and South Asia in any calculator and that drops off sharply outside of Afghanistan.
    Again the words "continuum and gradient" are meaningless when one end is extremely far from the other end. And lol, it doesn't "sharply" cut off once you go out of Afghanistan. There are also large gaps within the "continuum."

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    And I don't know anyone who's saying Afghans all mixed with Indians. That's a nonsensical statement and anyone making such a statement needs to define "Indian" first.
    That's what a lot of South Asians have been implying in these pashtun threads, and verbally saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    There's only a few calculators that can be considered "bad" and that's if they failed to do what they need to: distinguish populations along lines of modern genetic drift. HarappaWorld is successful in this regard (very much so, actually) and unlike others has a massive 400+ volunteer individual database which makes it, by far, the most useful calculator for South Asians.
    Exactly, and Pashtuns aren't genetically South Asians. You're saying people need to define "Indian," when that's far easier to define than "South Asian," a term that is even more diverse and ridiculous to throw pashtuns under. That calculator was clearly bad for them, and the best one is Iranian neotholic. Also we have very little genetic data on pashtuns to assume anything about them, including eastern afghan ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    It's not a term that even applies to modern Indians because it predates the ethnogenesis of both groups but these are the Neolithic-era inhabitants of the region:

    Your map even shows that the Indus Valley had barely anything to do with Afghanistan and even Eastern Afghanistan at all, and even the pashtun dominated parts of Pakistan didn't. Only a tiny part of Northeast Afghanistan was highlighted, and the Indus Valley was barely in South Asia itself, and was very very small. Greeks and Turks also have relations but are completely different, right? Same with Afghans and Indians.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortugai[/QUOTE]

  5. #24
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    Eurogenes ANE K7 (ancient):

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Mo/edit#gid=22

    ASE doubles from Iran to Afghanistan.

    New Iran K6:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1336010444

    Iranian average: 3.10% ASE

    Afghan-Pashtun average: 7.80% ASE

    Jumps significantly as you go from Iran to Afghanistan.

    Pashtun generally have as much ASE as Baloch.

    New Eurasia K6:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1108042089

    Pashtun-Afghan average: 11.61% ASE
    Iran_recent average: 6.70% ASE
    Iran_Neolithic (WC1): 7.70% ASE

    Keep in mind no one is mixing with Onge-looking East Asians here. ASE/ASI are subsumed within ancient ancestry in very lopsided ratios. A legitimate difference of 1% ASE between two population averages could mean as much as 5% total. Natufian drops off by almost 14% from Iran to Afghanistan.

    By contrast, there's a continuum in Afghanistan through South Asia. No sharp drop offs. There are no gaps between Southern and Eastern Afghanistan and at least as far into India as Punjab/Haryana as I've clearly shown. The Pashtun, who might seem to constitute a "jump" from other South Asians, themselves fit almost exactly halfway between Iranians and Indians:

    See Eurasia K6:

    Haryana Jat: 39.16% ANE, 15.37% ASE, 4.11% East Asian, 11.14% WHG, 30.22% Natufian
    Iranian: 33% ANE, 6.70% ASE, 3% East Asian, 9.30% WHG, 47% Natufian

    Cross of Iranian and Haryana Jat: 36.08% ANE, 11.035% ASE, 3.55% East Asian, 10.22% WHG, 38.61% Natufian

    Pashtun average: 37.34% ANE, 11.61% ASE, 9.91% East Asian, 7.91% WHG, 33.13% Natufian

    Iran K6:

    Haryana Jat: 11.43% ASE, 8.41% East Asian, 54.60% Iran_N, 6.19% Natufian, 18.90% WHG
    Iranian: 2.20% ASE, 1.80% East Asian, 48.20% Iran_N, 36.30% Natufian, 10.20% WHG

    Cross: 6.82% ASE, 5.11% East Asian, 51.4% Iran_N, 21.25% Natufian, 14.55% WHG

    Pashtun average: 7.80% ASE, 10.40% East Asian, 51.40% Iran_N, 14.90% Natufian, 15.40% WHG
    HRP0370 Afghan Pashtun: 7.98% ASE, 5.17% East Asian, 49.82% Iran_N, 19.49% Natufian, 16.98% WHG

    In fact, they often wind up closer to Haryana Jats than the midpoint of a cross between Haryana Jats and Iranians. The East Asian admixture here is also telling (take it away and they seem even more close to a cross of modern Iranians and modern Haryana Jats). And clearly that East Asian didn't come from Iranians or Indo-Iranians.

    That was my point. If even the little skew towards Iranians in Pashtun is significant, what about that entire continuum they're a part of that spreads to the East? Clearly there's been plenty of genetic exchange with areas around the Indus, which is firmly "Indian" and South Asian.

    As for "Pashtunification", that's a matter for historians, not geneticists. There's a genetic continuum across this entire region, regardless of whether they are unadmixed or admixed people. You can debate the finer points of that with the other users who are knowledgeable in the history of specific tribes.
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  7. #25
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    So "no" connection with India turns into "barely" any connection with India, got it.

    Greeks and Turks also have relations but are completely different, right? Same with Afghans and Indians.
    Greeks have substantial shared ancestry (from ancient Anatolians) with Turks (from Turkey). They are not "completely different" genetically. There are very few genetic boundaries in nature. Every human population is substantially related to its neighbor. Some more than others. Afghan Pashtun today, for example, are as related to modern Indians as they are to Iranians, if not moreso.

    Look at Tajiks and Turkic people in Central Asia today. They'll have a lot of shared/overlapping genetic ancestry.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J-Y978*) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a (FTDNA Kit 329180)
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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Eurogenes ANE K7 (ancient):

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Mo/edit#gid=22

    ASE doubles from Iran to Afghanistan.

    New Iran K6:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1336010444

    Iranian average: 3.10% ASE

    Afghan-Pashtun average: 7.80% ASE

    Jumps significantly as you go from Iran to Afghanistan.

    Pashtun generally have as much ASE as Baloch.

    New Eurasia K6:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1108042089

    Pashtun-Afghan average: 11.61% ASE
    Iran_recent average: 6.70% ASE
    Iran_Neolithic (WC1): 7.70% ASE

    Keep in mind no one is mixing with Onge-looking East Asians here. ASE/ASI are subsumed within ancient ancestry in very lopsided ratios. A legitimate difference of 1% ASE between two population averages could mean as much as 5% total. Natufian drops off by almost 14% from Iran to Afghanistan.

    By contrast, there's a continuum in Afghanistan through South Asia. No sharp drop offs. There are no gaps between Southern and Eastern Afghanistan and at least as far into India as Punjab/Haryana as I've clearly shown. The Pashtun, who might seem to constitute a "jump" from other South Asians, themselves fit almost exactly halfway between Iranians and Indians:

    See Eurasia K6:

    Haryana Jat: 39.16% ANE, 15.37% ASE, 4.11% East Asian, 11.14% WHG, 30.22% Natufian
    Iranian: 33% ANE, 6.70% ASE, 3% East Asian, 9.30% WHG, 47% Natufian

    Cross of Iranian and Haryana Jat: 36.08% ANE, 11.035% ASE, 3.55% East Asian, 10.22% WHG, 38.61% Natufian

    Pashtun average: 37.34% ANE, 11.61% ASE, 9.91% East Asian, 7.91% WHG, 33.13% Natufian

    Iran K6:

    Haryana Jat: 11.43% ASE, 8.41% East Asian, 54.60% Iran_N, 6.19% Natufian, 18.90% WHG
    Iranian: 2.20% ASE, 1.80% East Asian, 48.20% Iran_N, 36.30% Natufian, 10.20% WHG

    Cross: 6.82% ASE, 5.11% East Asian, 51.4% Iran_N, 21.25% Natufian, 14.55% WHG

    Pashtun average: 7.80% ASE, 10.40% East Asian, 51.40% Iran_N, 14.90% Natufian, 15.40% WHG
    HRP0370 Afghan Pashtun: 7.98% ASE, 5.17% East Asian, 49.82% Iran_N, 19.49% Natufian, 16.98% WHG

    In fact, they often wind up closer to Haryana Jats than the midpoint of a cross between Haryana Jats and Iranians. The East Asian admixture here is also telling (take it away and they seem even more close to a cross of modern Iranians and modern Haryana Jats). And clearly that East Asian didn't come from Iranians or Indo-Iranians.

    That was my point. If even the little skew towards Iranians in Pashtun is significant, what about that entire continuum they're a part of that spreads to the East? Clearly there's been plenty of genetic exchange with areas around the Indus, which is firmly "Indian" and South Asian.

    As for "Pashtunification", that's a matter for historians, not geneticists. There's a genetic continuum across this entire region, regardless of whether they are unadmixed or admixed people. You can debate the finer points of that with the other users who are knowledgeable in the history of specific tribes.
    3-7% is not "doubling." That's a 4% difference. Punjabi Jatts even score 15-17% on that, that's a far more stark distance than Iranians and Afghans, but you don't mention that, lol. Balochi are also an Iranic people, it is also naive to call them South Asians, but they should definitely be more indian influenced than Afghans are.

    Contiuums hardly mean anything. The continuum from Europe to Arabia is about just as large as the Continuum of Afghans to Indians, meaning it's meaningless. There also indeed gaps within the Continuum between Afghanistan and South india. The distance between Pasthuns and South Indians is so large, Pasthuns are genetically closer to Europeans than to South Indians and even indians after some the Gujuratis.

    The indus is not firmly Indian and "South asian" at all, it didn't even cover 95% of India, and even then, it barely had anything to do with Afghanistan, including Eastern Afghanistan as well. There hasn't been enough genetics exchange and you are making broad assumptions. All afghans are still closer to each other than to Indians and Pakistanis, from everything we've seen, and vice versa, meaning they're two different groups genetically. I've also never seen an afghan who scored less than a 13-15 genetic distance from indians, many score even nearly 20 distances away, that's not that close at all. That's like the distance between a German and Spaniard.

    And yes, it is a matter of both genetics and history. Genetically it is easy to distinguish Pasthuns from indians, even eastern afghan ones who are still closest to other Afghan Pasthuns genetically. And historically they have been Iranic since there were ever formal Iranic or indic identities, meaning they are historically iranic.

    Even phenotypically, Afghans on average look way closer to persians than to Indians. This is just the internet and what some genetics calculates says. In real life if you ask an Afghan who they think they're closer to after Afghans, they're most likely going to answer iranians. Even Indians and Pakistanis (except for you apparently) associate Afghans with Iranians and see Pasthuns as foreign to them.

    And no, Pasthuns are not genetically in between persians and Jatts, what? Haha. On most calculators I see them in between North Indians and North Caucasians on average. They definitely form their own cluster that is separate from but near nw indics genetically.

    I just don't understand why you think afghans and Jatts are apparently an oober synonymous group of people when they are different. Why associate any pashtuns with the term "indus basin," "indic," etc instead of "Pasthun," "afghan," and "iranic," when that's what they are? The last time I checked, this is a Pasthun subsection, not a "convince people that eastern afghans are pashtunized indians" thread. I simply asked if indians have recent afghan ancestry and where it comes from.
    Last edited by Heteorchromia; 09-23-2016 at 10:53 PM.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    So "no" connection with India turns into "barely" any connection with India, got it.

    Greeks have substantial shared ancestry (from ancient Anatolians) with Turks (from Turkey). They are not "completely different" genetically. There are very few genetic boundaries in nature. Every human population is substantially related to its neighbor. Some more than others. Afghan Pashtun today, for example, are as related to modern Indians as they are to Iranians, if not moreso.

    Look at Tajiks and Turkic people in Central Asia today. They'll have a lot of shared/overlapping genetic ancestry.
    Modern north west indians*. And I never denied that. But add culture, etc., and Iranians are ultimately closer to Afghans, not that indians aren't close though.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heteorchromia View Post
    But Maurya Empire was small, didn't actually have that many indians to impregnate every single afghan living in the area it stretched to. It is just as ridiculous as saying that the Arab invasion of Iran changed their genes. The Maury a Empire didn't even last that long and you're making it sound like the afghans who were under it identified as South Asians instead of afghans (lol). Afghans still had their afghan identity long before that.

    Afghans definitely influenced India more than the other way around. They are part of why India is partially muslim, and they introduced Indo-aryan languages to indian.

    I'm not saying there is a giant wall between the two, but you make it sound like they are a synonymous group of people, when they aren't. Afghans are closer to Iranian Persians than they are to any indics, when you weigh everything in. But indians are our cousins, and I have said before you cannot paint the picture of afghan history without Indians.
    What make your thinks that during the time of Mauryan empire, the current day afghans were even there in the area now called Aghanistan? they might not have been the original inhabitants of this area. The historic remains found in Afghanistan are of non Pakhtun/afghan origin!

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    Map of Mauryan Empire :

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jatt2016 View Post
    What make your thinks that during the time of Mauryan empire, the current day afghans were even there in the area now called Aghanistan? they might not have been the original inhabitants of this area. The historic remains found in Afghanistan are of non Pakhtun/afghan origin!
    Lol you sound like afrocentrists who claim Ancient Egypt was black, of course they were Afghans/iranics. Technically "indians" didn't exist back then either. Your point? What historic remains?

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