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Thread: Indians with pashtun ancestry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    I have yet to encounter an Indian who claims Pashtun ancestry save for the one who was an ethnic Pathan from Maler Kotla , which he said is an enclave in Indian Punjab which has many ethnic Pashtuns/Pathans , the other Muslims in the area Muslim Jats or recent migrants from Uttar Pradesh based off what he said Duffy can confirm as he knows that area better. You will encounter more Pakistanis saying this well because you do have 30-35 million ethnic Pashtuns/Pathan living in the country. I would say many do claim Pashtun ancestry but at the same time they are many who are. Where it gets complicated is many of the Pashtuns in the Nangarhar/Laghman/Kunar region were "Pashtunized" Indic/Indo Aryan peoples to begin with, presence of relic Indo Aryan languages like Nangalami and Pashaiye are evidence of that. The Indo Aryan cultural tool kit/ Gandhara culture emanated from that area as well centered on 3 cities , Jalalabad (Adinapur) , Peshawar and Taxila( near Rawalpindi)
    Umm how were the people from Kunar pashtunized? Those people were never indians. Also what do they have to with people from india claiming pashtun descent?

    Also, the two languages you described were Dardic, an that doesn't necessarily mean indian, some of it was more similar to Indo Iranians anyways. They were never classified as indo-aryan

    The only tribes hat were pashtunized were a Turkic tribe and a tribe in Peshawar Pakistan.
    Last edited by Heteorchromia; 09-23-2016 at 02:17 PM.

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    In our area in eastern India the word used is nearly always Pathan, not Pashtoon or even Pakhtoon.

    You do sometimes come across the usage Afghan, but that usage was by the old nobility - the Mughals.

    Nevertheless most Pathans are Brahman/Rajpoot converts and some historically have even been called Afghan - see eg the chief/bhuiya of Bangal Isa Khan Afghan whose father was a Vaishya Rajpoot (Bais Kali Das Gajdani). https://books.google.com/books?id=ig_gAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA57

    We have related Babhans, Rajpoots, and Pathans. The person who was an agriculturist was entitled Bhumihar. If a person became a chief and followed primogeniture they were called Rajpoot. If they converted to Islam, they were called Pathan. Eg. Kamsar Pathans https://books.google.com/books?id=dxDWbsztdVQC&pg=PA101

    Eg. our relatives further west from U.P. - Majhauli, Tamkuhi, and Salimpur.
    Tamkuhi folk are Bhumihar and call themselves Sahi. http://members.iinet.net.au/~royalty/ips/t/tamkuhi.html
    The Mahauli ones are Rajpoot and call themselves Mal.
    The Salimput ones are Pathans and entitle themselves Khan.

    On the Bihar side you see both Sahi and Mal appearing in the Hathwa line. http://members.iinet.net.au/~royalty/ips/h/hathwa.html
    I believe there was a conversion to Islam on the Bihar side of the family too, but maybe they abandoned Islam somewhere along the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heteorchromia View Post
    Umm how were the people from Kunar pashtunized? Those people were never indians. Also what do they have to with people from india claiming pashtun descent?

    Also, the two languages you described were Dardic, an that doesn't necessarily mean indian, some of it was more similar to Indo Iranians anyways. They were never classified as indo-aryan

    The only tribes hat were pashtunized were a Turkic tribe and a tribe in Peshawar Pakistan.
    What he meant at they`re indic, I.E. belonged to old South asian kingdoms and civilizations, not Indians from India. People seem to forget its a nationality, not a race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    What he meant at they`re indic, I.E. belonged to old South asian kingdoms and civilizations, not Indians from India. People seem to forget its a nationality, not a race.
    That's also a factually incorrect thing to say as well. They didnt belong to indian or South asian Kingdoms either. Of course Afghans have influence from that area, no doubt (indians are cousins to the afghans), but they were absolutely never indic. They are neither nationally nor ethnically indians.

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    Actually Maurya empire ruled a nice chunk of Afghanistan...

    Anyway seems like you're convinced that there's a big wall between both cultures, so We're just going in circles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heteorchromia View Post
    Umm how were the people from Kunar pashtunized? Those people were never indians. Also what do they have to with people from india claiming pashtun descent?

    Also, the two languages you described were Dardic, an that doesn't necessarily mean indian, some of it was more similar to Indo Iranians anyways. They were never classified as indo-aryan

    The only tribes hat were pashtunized were a Turkic tribe and a tribe in Peshawar Pakistan.
    Dardic is Sanskrit ie Indo Aryan based, its more conservative and retains archaic Indo Iranian features like letter "Z" which is not present in Vedic Sanskrit but its still Sanskrit. Indic/Indo Aryan does not mean Indian lol. Also I don't know why you keep making sock puppet accounts harping on the same topics. Many groups were Pashtunized and the process is still occurring esp with Nuristani people. Unfortunately you cannot change thousands of years of history, upto the 11th century , the areas I mentioned were more or less part of the cultural continuum in NW South Asia or Ancient India, the history backs it up, the genetics backs it up and the linguistic record does as well. Other areas were more or less Iranic/Yaz culturally based but with Hellenic and significant South Asian influences as well, due to Buddhism.
    Last edited by pegasus; 09-23-2016 at 08:04 PM.

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Actually Maurya empire ruled a nice chunk of Afghanistan...

    Anyway seems like you're convinced that there's a big wall between both cultures, so We're just going in circles.
    But Maurya Empire was small, didn't actually have that many indians to impregnate every single afghan living in the area it stretched to. It is just as ridiculous as saying that the Arab invasion of Iran changed their genes. The Maury a Empire didn't even last that long and you're making it sound like the afghans who were under it identified as South Asians instead of afghans (lol). Afghans still had their afghan identity long before that.

    Afghans definitely influenced India more than the other way around. They are part of why India is partially muslim, and they introduced Indo-aryan languages to indian.

    I'm not saying there is a giant wall between the two, but you make it sound like they are a synonymous group of people, when they aren't. Afghans are closer to Iranian Persians than they are to any indics, when you weigh everything in. But indians are our cousins, and I have said before you cannot paint the picture of afghan history without Indians.
    Last edited by Heteorchromia; 09-23-2016 at 09:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Actually Maurya empire ruled a nice chunk of Afghanistan...

    Anyway seems like you're convinced that there's a big wall between both cultures, so We're just going in circles.
    On top of the Mauryas, the Indus Valley Civilization was in Afghanistan, so were two of the 16 ancient Indian Vedic kingdoms in the middle of the first millennium BC, and one of the Shahi dynasties in the immediate pre-Islam period was Hindu and likely ruled by Brahmins from the East. All firmly Indian by any standard.

    That's not counting Muslim Indians. The Mughals have Central Asian roots and started in Afghanistan but were ethnically Indian by the end.

    There were many Hindus and Sikhs living in Afghanistan and they slowly emigrated back to India over the centuries, accelerating in the past two centuries as the Sikhs then the British conquered the area of modern day Pakistan (and vice-versa for Afghans in India).

    There have been more than enough people from east of the Indus in Afghanistan to have contributed significantly to Afghan genetics, history, and culture. It's a two-way exchange. Even now India continues to exert considerable influence over Afghanistan and many in the Afghan diaspora have wound up in India. Let's not even get into Pakistan. FWIW, "Baloch" counts as Indian or South Asian. Not Caucasian. If someone can't wrap their head around that, they need to redefine what "India" means in their head. It's like trying to reduce all of Europe to just England or Romania.

    Just using South Asian components in admixture calculators, there's a sudden huge jump in South Asian (almost 10% at minimum) as you go from Iran to Afghanistan (and all remaining South Asian admixture (~3-5%) is dropped as you leave Iran for any area west of Iran). If anything, that's the only real genetic boundary in the region. ANE also shoots up as you cross Iran into Afghanistan. It goes from like ~15-20% in Iran to 27+% all of a sudden in Afghanistan, in range of South Asians (and pre-modern Central Asians who contributed to the ancestry of both). You can easily tell recent Iranian ancestry from any Afghan whose ANE drops under 26%, even if only by 1% (using the old Eurogenes K7/K8 calculators here). Afghanistan's peoples are part of a continuum which extends into South Asia and some of them skew towards modern Iranians probably due to post-Islam admixture events (because modern Iranians are genetically distinctive from the ancient Steppe Indo-Iranians who migrated into South and South Central Asia).

    Within Afghanistan you have a lot of people clustering around 15% South Asian from old admixture calculators, and then a lot at 20-22%, and now we find a lot of people inbetween there due to mixing, so it's a continuous gradient. Meanwhile in the East, the least admixed Indo-Aryan ethnic group, the Haryana Jats, bottom out at 24-25% (from what we've seen so far). Inbetween that you have the Pathans and other ethnic groups of northern Pakistan. It's a pretty smooth gradient.

    Check this out, from HarappaWorld's spreadsheet:

    Iranian - 4.20% S-Indian, 27.57% Baloch, 39.79% Caucasian, 5.39% NE-Euro, 1.81% Siberian, 1.39% NE-Asian, 1.13% Beringian, 4.86% Mediterranean, 15.08% SW-Asian
    Pashtun - 17.77% S-Indian, 33.97% Baloch, 20.28% Caucasian, 11.43% NE-Euro, 2.80% Siberian, 1.36% NE-Asian, 1% Papuan, 1.5% Amerindian, 1.65% Beringian, 1.46% Mediterranean, 4.61% SW-Asian
    Kalash - 21.64% S-Indian, 43.46% Baloch, 18.36% Caucasian, 10.64% NE-Euro, 1.84% Siberian, 1.33% Amerindian, 1.77% Beringian
    HGDP Pathan - 23.21% S-Indian
    Bhatia (Punjabi) - 24.64% S-Indian, 45.65% Baloch, 12.22% Caucasian, 11.08% NE-Euro, 1.16% NE-Asian, 2% Amerindian, 1.66% SW-Asian
    Rajasthani Jat - 25.46% S-Indian, 35.09% Baloch, 11.27% Caucasian, 15.36% NE-Euro, 1.41% Siberian, 1.96% Amerindian, 1.34% Beringian, 4.28% Mediterranean, 1.77% SW-Asian
    Haryana Jat - 26.56% S-Indian, 37.23% Baloch, 9.32% Caucasian, 17.68% NE-Euro, 1% Siberian, 1.81% Amerindian, 1.21% Beringian, 3.25% Mediterranean, 0.45% SW-Asian

    If we cross Iranian and Haryana Jat, we get:

    15.38% S-Indian, 32.40% Baloch, 24.56% Caucasian, 11.54% NE-Euro, 1.36% Siberian, 0.8% NE-Asian, 0.76% Papuan, 1.12% Amerindian, 1.17% Beringian, 4.06% Mediterranean, 5.91% SW-Asian

    Interesting, no?

    That's not to say Pashtun are descended from Haryana Jats or even Tajiks. They were their own cousin branch of the Indo-Iranian Steppe people who were probably somewhere in the middle between Pamiri Tajiks and Haryana Jat (along a cline of increasing Baloch/Gedrosian/Neolithic Iranian admixture peaking in the Pakistan region then declining again a little into India... and this counts as "Indian"), and then got some admixture from modern (post-Chalcholithic) Iranians (they're the only ethnic group to skew towards modern Iranians/Middle Eastern people in that sense... the SW-Asian is a good component to track foreign ancestry in South Asia...).

    The best proxy for their ancestors are probably Kurds who are also Steppe Indo-Iranians mixed with post-Chl Iranians, and have a connection to Neolithic Iranian admixture in Baloch (it's almost an unreal coincidence of history that such another close population still exists). Then add a dash of "India".

    Edit: And check out how many Arabs are coming up with South Asian R1a-L657 in the FTDNA projects. Indians got around after the advent of Islam. A lot. Also take a look at Pashtun haplogroups and compare them to other South Asians. The clades of R1a that predominate are found mostly in the East (Z2124 has a peak in Southwestern India for some reason and L657 obviously is predominant in the rest). There's a huge proportion of L3/L1c/L-M357 in some Pashtun tribes due to recent founder effect. That haplogroup also found is in high frequencies among Pakistan ethnic groups, especially Jatts, and is found throughout India. If someone with Afghan L1c-M357 wants to get Big Y or FGC, they can see how far back the locals in Afghanistan split off from those in India since this is a Neolithic haplogroup that is probably as indigenous to Afghanistan as any: https://yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/ (Check out that Arabian clade which spread out from India 1400ybp!)
    Last edited by Dr_McNinja; 09-23-2016 at 09:26 PM.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J-Y978*) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a (FTDNA Kit 329180)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494) (FTDNA Kit 311047), mtDNA: M30b (FTDNA Kit B6225) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a* Y7+ (FTDNA Kit 329181))

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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Dardic is Sanskrit ie Indo Aryan based, its more conservative and retains archaic Indo Iranian features like letter "Z" which is not present in Vedic Sanskrit but its still Sanskrit. Indic/Indo Aryan does not mean Indian lol. Also I don't know why you keep making sock puppet accounts harping on the same topics. Many groups were Pashtunized and the process is still occurring esp with Nuristani people. Unfortunately you cannot change thousands of years of history, upto the 11th century, the areas I mentioned were more or less part of the cultural continuum in NW South Asia or Ancient India, the history backs it up, the genetics backs it up and the linguistic record does as well. Other areas were more or less Iranic/Yaz culturally based but with Hellenic and significant South Asian influences as well, due to Buddhism.
    What genetics? Every single afghan oracle I have seen have placed then closest to other Afghans. I've also never seen one that's closer than a 13-15 distance to any Indian. Again religion. =/= culture. Where do you think Vedic, Sanskrit, etc languages came from? They are also indo-Iranic languages and have nothing to do with the original dravidian languages of India. Eastern Afghans have some of the most notable and original tribes of Pashtuns, so what you're essentially saying is that some of the people who started part of the Pasthun identity are pashtunized. They have always been Iranic and closest to all other afghans (besides some recent minority ones) than to anyone in India, and that's a fact. Dardic doesnt mean indian or indic. "Indic" is not a language type at all, but a codeword for languages spoken and cultures in India. Even Nuristani people are closer to Afghans in terms of culture etc, than to any indians and they're "Dardic" too.

    Also I'm no sock.

  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    On top of the Mauryas, the Indus Valley Civilization was in Afghanistan, so were two of the 16 ancient Indian Vedic kingdoms in the middle of the first millennium BC, and one of the Shahi dynasties in the immediate pre-Islam period was Hindu and likely ruled by Brahmins from the East. All firmly Indian by any standard.

    That's not counting Muslim Indians. The Mughals have Central Asian roots and started in Afghanistan but were ethnically Indian by the end.

    There were many Hindus and Sikhs living in Afghanistan and they slowly emigrated back to India over the centuries, accelerating in the past two centuries as the Sikhs then the British conquered the area of modern day Pakistan (and vice-versa for Afghans in India).

    There have been more than enough people from east of the Indus in Afghanistan to have contributed significantly to Afghan genetics, history, and culture. It's a two-way exchange. Even now India continues to exert considerable influence over Afghanistan and many in the Afghan diaspora have wound up in India. Let's not even get into Pakistan. FWIW, "Baloch" counts as Indian or South Asian. Not Caucasian. If someone can't wrap their head around that, they need to redefine what "India" means in their head. It's like trying to reduce all of Europe to just England or Romania.

    Just using South Asian components in admixture calculators, there's a sudden huge jump in South Asian (almost 10% at minimum) as you go from Iran to Afghanistan (and all remaining South Asian admixture (~3-5%) is dropped as you leave Iran for any area west of Iran). If anything, that's the only real genetic boundary in the region. ANE also shoots up as you cross Iran into Afghanistan. It goes from like ~15-20% in Iran to 27+% all of a sudden in Afghanistan, in range of South Asians (and pre-modern Central Asians who contributed to the ancestry of both). You can easily tell recent Iranian ancestry from any Afghan whose ANE drops under 26%, even if only by 1% (using the old Eurogenes K7/K8 calculators here). Afghanistan's peoples are part of a continuum which extends into South Asia and some of them skew towards modern Iranians probably due to post-Islam admixture events (because modern Iranians are genetically distinctive from the ancient Steppe Indo-Iranians who migrated into South and South Central Asia).

    Within Afghanistan you have a lot of people clustering around 15% South Asian from old admixture calculators, and then a lot at 20-22%, and now we find a lot of people inbetween there due to mixing, so it's a continuous gradient. Meanwhile in the East, the least admixed Indo-Aryan ethnic group, the Haryana Jats, bottom out at 24-25% (from what we've seen so far). Inbetween that you have the Pathans and other ethnic groups of northern Pakistan. It's a pretty smooth gradient.

    Check this out, from HarappaWorld's spreadsheet:

    Iranian - 4.20% S-Indian, 27.57% Baloch, 39.79% Caucasian, 5.39% NE-Euro, 1.81% Siberian, 1.39% NE-Asian, 1.13% Beringian, 4.86% Mediterranean, 15.08% SW-Asian
    Pashtun - 17.77% S-Indian, 33.97% Baloch, 20.28% Caucasian, 11.43% NE-Euro, 2.80% Siberian, 1.36% NE-Asian, 1% Papuan, 1.5% Amerindian, 1.65% Beringian, 1.46% Mediterranean, 4.61% SW-Asian
    Kalash - 21.64% S-Indian, 43.46% Baloch, 18.36% Caucasian, 10.64% NE-Euro, 1.84% Siberian, 1.33% Amerindian, 1.77% Beringian
    HGDP Pathan - 23.21% S-Indian
    Bhatia (Punjabi) - 24.64% S-Indian, 45.65% Baloch, 12.22% Caucasian, 11.08% NE-Euro, 1.16% NE-Asian, 2% Amerindian, 1.66% SW-Asian
    Rajasthani Jat - 25.46% S-Indian, 35.09% Baloch, 11.27% Caucasian, 15.36% NE-Euro, 1.41% Siberian, 1.96% Amerindian, 1.34% Beringian, 4.28% Mediterranean, 1.77% SW-Asian
    Haryana Jat - 26.56% S-Indian, 37.23% Baloch, 9.32% Caucasian, 17.68% NE-Euro, 1% Siberian, 1.81% Amerindian, 1.21% Beringian, 3.25% Mediterranean, 0.45% SW-Asian

    If we cross Iranian and Haryana Jat, we get:

    15.38% S-Indian, 32.40% Baloch, 24.56% Caucasian, 11.54% NE-Euro, 1.36% Siberian, 0.8% NE-Asian, 0.76% Papuan, 1.12% Amerindian, 1.17% Beringian, 4.06% Mediterranean, 5.91% SW-Asian

    Interesting, no?

    That's not to say Pashtun are descended from Haryana Jats or even Tajiks. They were their own cousin branch of the Indo-Iranian Steppe people who were probably somewhere in the middle between Pamiri Tajiks and Haryana Jat (along a cline of increasing Baloch/Gedrosian/Neolithic Iranian admixture peaking in the Pakistan region then declining again a little into India... and this counts as "Indian"), and then got some admixture from modern (post-Chalcholithic) Iranians (they're the only ethnic group to skew towards modern Iranians/Middle Eastern people in that sense... the SW-Asian is a good component to track foreign ancestry in South Asia...).

    The best proxy for their ancestors are probably Kurds who are also Steppe Indo-Iranians mixed with post-Chl Iranians, and have a connection to Neolithic Iranian admixture in Baloch (it's almost an unreal coincidence of history that such another close population still exists). Then add a dash of "India".
    Lol, Afghans and Iranians don't have a stark difference in South asian genetics, take a look at a recent Iranian neotholic calculator and you'll see that pashtuns and Iranians score near the same percentile on average. Also, the reason for the genetic continuum is because of Iranian neotholic. The more south you go, the less of it you have. The average pashtun is going to be about just as far from a North Indian genetically as he is from a Chechen. Iranian Neolithic doesn't count as "Indian," that is a West asian component like Caucasus Hunter Gatherer. There has never been enough indians to say sat that eastern afghans all admixed with Indians. Are you gonna start claiming all Iranians have arabic ancestry from the arabic invasion of Iran too? Also that's your problem, youre looking at OLD calculators, not new ones. I also heard harrapa was a terrible calculator.

    And what do you mean they were apart of the Industry Valley culture? That's not even a term that applies to Afghans.

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