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Thread: Indians with pashtun ancestry?

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    An interesting excerpt about Pathans of India from the Asiatic Society of Bengal, Volume 35, page 98-99.

    It will also, I think, be proper to mention the Indian Pathans, before I leave my present class of Fighting-Fanners. I do not now tonch on the proper Pushtoo-speaking Pathans. I do not reckon them as Indian, and all the Pathans beyond the Indus, as well as a few on this side (in the north of the Hazareh District and, west of that of Rawal Pindee), are Pushtoo-speakers. The Pathans are the only Central- Asiatic people who have in comparatively modern times colonised to a considerable extent in India. They have never come in large bodies, nor occupied any large tracts at any ono spot, but Afghanistan has alwaj's been as it were the base of opera tions of all the successive Mahommedan Empires in India ; and from that base Pathans have immigrated in the service or under the pro tection of Mahommedan rulers, and have settled themselves here and there at many places throughout Northern India and even in some places in Southern India. They are not nearly so much mere Urban fortune-seekers as other Mahommedans, but are generally settled in villages, in many of which they own and cultivate the soil, and in some of which they form large brotherhoods, approaching those of Jats and Rajpoots. Their constitution and modes of government also seem to me to be in these villages very similar. They have been generally a favoured class who have had in places a good deal of jagheer and rent-free land, and still look a good deal to service, but many of them pay their rent or revenue by honest cultivation like any one else. Indian society is a wonderful solvent and absorbent ; every one who long lives in it, becomes Indianised ; and so all the Pathan colonists, even those whose immigrations are matter of recent history, are essentially Indian, not Affghan. Among Indians, they have very marked characteristies, but their nationality is changed, and the Pathans from the Frontier, who came down in the mutiny times, utterly refused to acknowledge the proudest Indian Pathans as having anything in common with themselves, and chopped off their heads with the utmost non-chalance. In many respects, however, the Indian Pathans are a very great improvement on the wilder Pathans of the Frontier. They are very much more civilised and educated. In India, in fact, the Pathans are quite an aristocratic class. Not withstanding the wide door to corruption of blood opened by the Mahommedan laws of marriage, they are still a very handsome people ;
    n large proportion of them are in a respectable well-to-do position, and many of them are very well educated. After all a well-educated Mahommedan has much more in common with us than most Hindus, and comes much nearer our idea of a gentleman. It may be, too, that these Fathans retain some little trace of that non-Indian character which makes us readily become familiar with Affghans. Altogether I have no hesitation in saying that (putting the Punjab apart), among Hindustanees, the Pathans are by far the best class with whom we come in contact. They have always been very numerous in our Irregular Cavalry and also had a large share in our Civil Service. I shall be sorry, if, partly on account of the more insinuating and it may be in some respects sharper character of subservient Hindus, and partly from the difficulty of imposing our education on those who have already an education of their own, these and other Mahommedans are gradually extruded from the public service. Pathan settlements are dotted here and there about the Punjab, but they are not very numerous. In Hindustan they are more so. They are found about Dehli, and are very numerous in the Upper Doab and Rohilcund, though it must not be supposed that the latter is really a Rohilla country ; it is only a Rohilla jagheer, and the Pathans, though positively numerous, are relatively but a small minority of the population. It may be mentioned that the term ' Rohilla' does not signify any particular tribe, but is applied in India to Pathans generally, meaning apparently " mountaineer." The Rohil cund and Dehli Provinces are the chief nurseries of Pathan soldiers, &c., but all over Hindustan, and indeed all over India, Pathan Princi palities and Jagheers, Pathan settlements, and Pathan families are found here and there.
    Who wrote this?

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceharlock View Post
    Who wrote this?
    Some British ethnologist, working for the Indian Civil Service, and the Asiatic Society of Bengal.

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  4. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Some British ethnologist, working for the Indian Civil Service, and the Asiatic Society of Bengal.
    Oh, I noticed how Pashtuns were referred to as Central Asians. Do any other South Asian texts refer to them as this? But you said the person writing is British so it makes sense.

  5. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceharlock View Post
    Oh, I noticed how Pashtuns were referred to as Central Asians. Do any other South Asian texts refer to them as this? But you said the person writing is British so it makes sense.
    "South Asian" is a pretty new term for the Indian Subcontinent so it would be hard to verify.

  6. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    There are indeed Pashtun-descent communities all over the subcontinent, but most are mixed. I think the average 'Pathan' guy from India would be either 1/4th Pashtun to 1/2 Pashtun. Though, there are still some pure Pashtun communities mainly in Kashmir, the Punjab (both east and west). However, during colonial times, there were documented Pashto speakers even in the Hindi Belt region, though I think that has faded with time.

    The highest concentrations of Pathans would be in UP, mainly in urban localities of the Rohilkhand/Awadh/Doab, especially in cities such as Malihabad, Qaimganj, Deoband, Bareily, Rampur etc. Bhopal and Indore in Central India also has large Pathan communities because of the presence of Pashtun-dynasties there, and so does Tonk in Rajasthan, and areas like Junagadh + pockets in South/North Gujarat. Bihar also has a large presence of Pathan communties since the time of Sher Shah Suri. Bengal too, had since developed communities of refugee Afghans fleeing the advance of the Mughals into the forests of the Bhati (east Bengal region), + obviously local leaders around Murshidabad. Though, in Bengal, the 'pathan' identity isn't really strong at all, and non-existent in urban areas. Also Old Delhi/Old Hyderabad also have big Pathan populations, as they are majority Muslim. Lol, Heck, even Tamil Nadu has a substantial Pathan community, who have long served the Nawabs of Arcot, and are distinct from Tamil Muslims of the area, in that they speak Urdu.

    Many Muhajirs that immigrated to Pakistan thus also descend from a lot of these communities. What I find interesting however, is that especially in rural areas/small towns, many of these Pathans, preserve a knowledge of their tribal affiliations, and this is visible in some of British-taken censuses of erstwhile United India.

    Though, in India, many Muslim Rajputs/Mughals think they are Pathans, because they carry the title of 'khan'. Shahrukh Khan is an interesting example, since he said he's Pashtun, even though his family origins lie in Peshawar, and they are rather Hindkowans/Punjabis rather than actual Pashtuns. This was probably a ploy for him to get the support of Indian pathans maybe, or a genuine misrepresentation of identities, but who knows.
    If you meant many Muslim Rajputs think they are Pathans, then I think you are wrong. Muslims Rajputs know they converted. Many, or most of them perhaps, converted in last 500 years or less.

  7. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by (!)--SSA--(!) View Post
    If you meant many Muslim Rajputs think they are Pathans, then I think you are wrong. Muslims Rajputs know they converted. Many, or most of them perhaps, converted in last 500 years or less.
    Well, most Muslim Rajputs (80% and above) probably reside in Pakistan where they have a very strong community consciousness, and virtually none will identify as pathan. I'm talking about India here, where they're only found in significant pockets in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Jammu & Kashmir, and pockets in UP, MP and Bihar. The Pathan community in India is much larger than the Rajputs of Muslim faith in India, and I think through that circumstance, many Rajputs will lose their community consciousness and start to identify with the pathan community especially in urban areas.

    I mean, as I've said before, even Shahrukh Khan thinks he's Pathan, when he's clearly not. Many even think Yusuf Khan/Dilip Kumar was a pathan because he was also from Peshawar, but he was just an Awan with the title of Khan.

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  9. #197
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    Saw this short documentary a while ago.


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  11. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Well, most Muslim Rajputs (80% and above) probably reside in Pakistan where they have a very strong community consciousness, and virtually none will identify as pathan. I'm talking about India here, where they're only found in significant pockets in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Jammu & Kashmir, and pockets in UP, MP and Bihar. The Pathan community in India is much larger than the Rajputs of Muslim faith in India, and I think through that circumstance, many Rajputs will lose their community consciousness and start to identify with the pathan community especially in urban areas.

    I mean, as I've said before, even Shahrukh Khan thinks he's Pathan, when he's clearly not. Many even think Yusuf Khan/Dilip Kumar was a pathan because he was also from Peshawar, but he was just an Awan with the title of Khan.
    Perhaps (not sure?) majority of the Muslim Rajputs were in Punjab and nearby areas in Kashmir, and fewer Muslim Rajputs elsewhere in India? Large majority of the Rajputs in Punjab converted to Islam. I think upto 90%? Thats why there are fewer Rajputs now in Indian Punjab because vast majority had converted and in 1947 they migrated to Pakistan. People sometimes say "there are not that many Rajputs in India Punjab" but thats because vast majority converted (around 1500+).

    I see what you mean now about Muslim Rajputs in India. If they are comparatively small in number they might merge into Pathans like you said, but many of the Pathans are probably not of Afghan origin in the first place?

    Sharukh Khan first started acting in Punjabi TV serials (in India ofc) long time back. I saw him in some old serials that were shown on a Punjabi channel in UK a few years ago. He speaks perfect Punjabi.

  12. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Dardic is Sanskrit ie Indo Aryan based, its more conservative and retains archaic Indo Iranian features like letter "Z" which is not present in Vedic Sanskrit but its still Sanskrit. Indic/Indo Aryan does not mean Indian lol. Also I don't know why you keep making sock puppet accounts harping on the same topics. Many groups were Pashtunized and the process is still occurring esp with Nuristani people. Unfortunately you cannot change thousands of years of history, upto the 11th century , the areas I mentioned were more or less part of the cultural continuum in NW South Asia or Ancient India, the history backs it up, the genetics backs it up and the linguistic record does as well. Other areas were more or less Iranic/Yaz culturally based but with Hellenic and significant South Asian influences as well, due to Buddhism.
    Dardic is a linguistic group not a racial group nor a cultural group. Dards themselves are different from eachother genetically and culturally. If two ethnic groups belong to the same linguistic group it is not necesary that they should be similar genetically and culturally too. Language is one thing and genetics is another. We should not mix them.

  13. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by kakiasumi View Post
    Dardic is a linguistic group not a racial group nor a cultural group. Dards themselves are different from eachother genetically and culturally. If two ethnic groups belong to the same linguistic group it is not necesary that they should be similar genetically and culturally too. Language is one thing and genetics is another. We should not mix them.
    This was in reference to Dardic and non East Iranic groups (Nuristani) in the Hindu Kush areas and yeah they do cluster genetically in that region, just look at Khana's recent results . You are missing the point and going off on different tangents.

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