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Thread: European ancestry in Iran

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Population density in the Iranian plateau has been fairly substantial since the Neolithic. This wasn't so on the steppes in large part, on the other hand, and particularly around the Altai.

    Once more, I recommend undertaking the basic prerequisites regarding Iranian ethnogenesis before framing such suppositions as valid counter-arguments.

    Also, once more, nobody is insisting Altaians have (recent) European ancestry.

    You're reacting to phantom arguments and it is becoming tiresome.



    Another phantom argument response.

    Syrians certainly are closer to Iranians than Iranians are to Europeans.



    I agree with you, and even the OP agrees on the whole.

    I do not understand why you insist on focusing on this tangential topic (how close Iranians are genetically to Europeans), when nobody in this thread has an interest in discussing it.

    Your entire premise is based on an alternate interpretation of the OP. We've established that Iranians obviously don't have significant recent European ancestry.

    Please let this die, as it should have, several pages back.



    You'll have a much better indication with respect to population affinities with the newer calculators. My comment was with respect to Iranians against Saudis/Bedouins and Baltic populations.

    The introduction of CHG and Iran_ChL/N has substantially shifted the GD patterns seen in previous calculators. For instance, from memory, Iranians paired better with North Caucasians than Levant populations with CHG's presence alone.
    The funny thing is he mentions reacting to claims of an "exaggeration of European ancestry in Iran" made by myself, yet, if he reads my posts carefully he'll realise I acknowledge and state very clearly that any European ancestry and influence in Iran is very minimum. That is the whole point of this thread, to uncover and dive into this very rare and unknown thing that may occur among select families in Iran, yet for some reason he believes I'm trying to portray the notion that "Iranians = europeans"....

    At this point its hard to believe that he's not just trolling for the sake of it, as I'm struggling to understand how somebody can't grasp onto such a simple thing, when many members here have already told him what this thread is about, and what my intentions and opinions were when posting this thread.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 09-24-2016 at 11:50 PM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancestryfan1994 View Post

    At this point its hard to believe that he's not just trolling for the sake of it, as I'm struggling to understand how somebody can't grasp onto such a simple thing, when many members here have already told him what this thread is about, and what my intentions and opinions were when posting this thread.
    Rest assured that, at this stage, the intention of your thread is abundantly clear, so I'll have no problems with the administrative team pruning out subsequent messages akin to those made in previous pages from here on.

    The wording was ambiguous in some lines in your opening post to be fair, but establishing the intent once should have sufficed. This has become needlessly laborious and I see no benefit in entertaining Volat's tangents any further here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khuur View Post
    I have saw Iranians plotting near South Caucasians and Turks as well on PCAs. Is this likely to due to CHG and Iran ChL/ N? I also think that Iranians are genetically a lot closer to South Caucasians, Turks, some Mesopotamians and probably North Caucasians and Afghans than to Levant populations.
    The inter-relationship between Iran_N and the other ancient components is still uncertain at this point.

    The hefty amount of Basal Eurasian in these populations (expressed through Iran_N, Iran_ChL and CHG) probably has a large part to do with it. There also appears to be something related to EHG (I've interpreted this as just another variant of ANE and not actual EHG from Eastern Europe, a position Davidski agrees with I suspect) present in them. Also, there's a sizable amount of EEF present (either directly so, via Iran_ChL or through steppe populations).

    The above is based on a schematic in Lazaridis et al. 2016 which I'm having trouble locating at the moment.

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    Here is an excerpt from wikipedia that describes the historic contacts between Iranians and the lands that would become known as Russia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_Russia


    People from the former and contemporary boundaries of Iran have a long history in the territory of what is modern-day Russia, stretching back thousands of years. Throughout history, the Caucasus region was usually incorporated into the Iranian world,[3] and large parts of it were ruled by empires based in modern-day Iran for a time span encompassing many centuries, or were under its direct influence. From the early 16th century up to including the early 19th century, Transcaucasia and a part of the North Caucasus (namely Dagestan), were ruled by the successive Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar dynasties of Iran, and made up part of the latters very concept for three centuries.[4] In the course of the 19th century, by the Treaty of Gulistan of 1813 and the Treaty of Turkmenchay of 1828, Iran ceded the region to Russia. Ever since, the Dagestan region still makes up part of Russia.[5]

    The Tats are amongst the native inhabitants of the Northern Caucasus and descent from Iranian settlers from during the Sasanian Empire.

    Russian church, Qazvin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Church,_Qazvin

    St Nicholas church, Tehran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Ni...Church,_Tehran

    At the end of the 16th century a monk Nicephorus,[1] founded the first Russian parish on the land of Persia. A Russian spiritual mission was operating in Iran by the beginning of the 20th century, and by 1917 there were about fifty Russian Orthodox churches.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 09-25-2016 at 05:58 PM.

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    The Greek community in Iran

    http://kavehfarrokh.com/uncategorize...n-modern-iran/

    http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/201...vi2kgrwISS7.99

    This is a community that is practically non existent today, but did have some healthy numbers in the past.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 09-30-2016 at 12:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancestryfan1994 View Post
    Your right, however i think we're missing the point of this thread, I'm well aware of Iran's obvious turkic admixture. What i think people often tend to overlook is the slight possibility for links outside of the region. For example, you mention the Russians, I know and have heard of some Iranians (and even a close kurdish friend of mine) who have some Russian ancestry, so there was indeed some mixing that happened.

    If there is any european admixture from Europe, its most likely found in people like my own family, who have lived on the coastal areas of Iran and were merchants involved in trade, this would have given them the opportunity to make contact with the outside world, something the other more central parts maybe never did.
    Some Iranians such as kurds claim russian ancestry but I think the case is that their "Russian ancestry" is just caucasian ezidi kurd ancestry from south caucasus but since south caucasus was Russia back in the days many mistake it to Russian Slavic ancestry which is most likely totally not the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafael View Post
    Some Iranians such as kurds claim russian ancestry but I think the case is that their "Russian ancestry" is just caucasian ezidi kurd ancestry from south caucasus but since south caucasus was Russia back in the days many mistake it to Russian Slavic ancestry which is most likely totally not the case.
    Could be, depends on the individual. Genealogy is not a strong point for Iranians, but I recall a few times where actual Iranians have had legit slavic Russian ancestry, the links show a few famous examples.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 11-14-2016 at 01:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancestryfan1994 View Post
    Could be, depends on the individual. Genealogy is not a strong point for Iranians, but I recall a few times where actual Iranians have had legit slavic Russian ancestry, the links show a few famous examples.
    Yeah it certainly does seem to be so with some Iranians. However I don't quite know does the Iranians with Russian Connection count though? I mean I know that it is a vague subject and for different people European means different thing but in my view Russians are not Europeans. I like to think that ''Actual'' Europeans are of Dutch, German, Swiss & French descent. I Do know that Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians & Greeks are just as Europeans Genetically (R1b) besides Greeks who are mostly E-V13 but nonetheless I don't consider them to be the same Europeans culturally as the above mentioned nationalities. Hell we could add Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards & Greeks to the list. I guess they are just their own sort of Europeans. After all Greeks & Italians did play a major role in developing what we now see as European

    If we exclude Christianity then to me Slavic and Iranian cultures have much more in common compared to what Russians have with the other Europeans. And by culture I mean the elements which derived from the historical connection between Slavs & Iranians. High frequency of R1a, common words, ancient clothing, tombs & etc. Yes nowadays we can't even compare those two.
    So that's why to me Russians are just little too similar to Iranians to be called as Europeans. I hope you get the picture

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafael View Post
    Yeah it certainly does seem to be so with some Iranians. However I don't quite know does the Iranians with Russian Connection count though? I mean I know that it is a vague subject and for different people European means different thing but in my view Russians are not Europeans. I like to think that ''Actual'' Europeans are of Dutch, German, Swiss & French descent. I Do know that Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians & Greeks are just as Europeans Genetically (R1b) besides Greeks who are mostly E-V13 but nonetheless I don't consider them to be the same Europeans culturally as the above mentioned nationalities. Hell we could add Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards & Greeks to the list. I guess they are just their own sort of Europeans. After all Greeks & Italians did play a major role in developing what we now see as European

    If we exclude Christianity then to me Slavic and Iranian cultures have much more in common compared to what Russians have with the other Europeans. And by culture I mean the elements which derived from the historical connection between Slavs & Iranians. High frequency of R1a, common words, ancient clothing, tombs & etc. Yes nowadays we can't even compare those two.
    So that's why to me Russians are just little too similar to Iranians to be called as Europeans. I hope you get the picture
    It depends. I'd say it counts, Russia is a massive place though, so if the Russian ancestry in question is really say, Ossetian, or even Avar, then I would tend to agree with you that it doesn't really count as european, because Ossetians are an "Iranian" group, apparently. But slavic Russian counts as european IMO, phenotypically, and ancestral wise they might even derive some connections to mainland Europe like German ancestry etc. I also fail to see this surprising similarities between Iranians and Russians? Different languages, different ethnic groups, and really, completely different cultures to be honest.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 11-26-2016 at 03:55 AM.

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