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Thread: Pict's - Who What When Where?

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Thank you Andrew. The Clan Gregor project has perhaps not got around to putting up the result for Kit#2124 on the SNP page, but I was assuming that it would be L1065+.
    Just to clarify, I am not aware of the exact details on the Clan's SNP testing but I was thinking of the fact that the connection between L1065 and the Scots clade is now more or less confirmed and can be at least referred to as the apparent truth, so to speak. The Scots clade itself was I think never a controversially defined clade: even if there might be grey areas, there is certainly a core group which is quite homogeneous, and certainly includes the relevant MacGregor, Campbell, Buchanan, etc etc lineages.

    One I know first hand: the chiefly line of the Clan Livingstone (which is actually an Argyll clan, known in Gaelic as MacLea, or MacOnLea, or even Mac Donnsleibhe, with nothing to do with the place in Lothian) has been checked by testing some of the kits closest to the chief and his late father. Results were positive. The Clan has a reputation as one of the oldest in Argyll.

    (Of course as with any such SNP/STR correspondence there can be a result out of the blue which shows a slight difference in the definition of the two sets on a twig somewhere. Being certain is always relative.)

    Andrew

  2. #42
    Senior Member MJost's Avatar
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    I thought I would post several links associated with Scotland Historical aspects.

    The Society of Antiquaries of Scotland.

    This Society pursues the study of the antiquities and history of Scotland through various means.

    www.socantscot.org

    The Scottish Archaeological Research Framework (ScARF) reflects the current state of knowledge regarding Scotland’s past through the study of the antiquities and history of Scotland, more especially by means of archaeological research.

    http://www.scottishheritagehub.com/s...%20updated.pdf

    http://www.socantscot.org/content.asp?Page=333&Menu=239

    MJost
    f148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSeq-ID6. R-DF13>FGC5496>*5521>*5539>*5538>*5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF appears to be from the same Watterson line via Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  3. #43
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Pictish burials found at ‘Royal Rhynie’ site

    http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index....al-rhynie-site

    The grave of what could be a member of early Pictish royalty has been discovered as part of an archaeological dig in northeast Scotland. The discovery is one of the few made in this area and was found in a carefully made grave lined with sandstone slabs, suggestive of a high status burial... Rhynie in Aberdeenshire, has long been known for its eight carved standing stones including the renowned ‘Craw Stane’. Previous digs have uncovered rare examples of Mediterranean imports and intricate metalwork which add to the theory that the area was a former Pictish centre of power.

    The latest discovery, made during the Rhynie Environs Archaeological Project (REAP), is the first time remains of a body have been uncovered at the site....The remains will now be studied using a raft of scientific techniques including radiocarbon and stable isotope analysis, if the level of bone preservation is sufficient.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    The Northern Picts Project: the Rise and Fall of a ‘Lost’ People of Early Medieval Northern Europe

    http://www.abdn.ac.uk/archaeology/re...orthern-picts/

    The first millennium AD in northern Europe witnessed the transformation of small-scale tribal societies into medieval kingdoms, changes that laid the foundations for the modern nation states of Europe. In northern Britain, the Pictish Kingdoms that emerged in northern Scotland in the post-Roman period (c.AD 400-900) were important political players both regionally and on a European scale. Indeed, the major legacies of the Picts include some of the most spectacular archaeological sites and artistic achievements of Early Medieval European society. In northern Scotland the Kingdoms of the Northern Picts spanned an area from the Northeast of Scotland mainland to the northern Isles of Shetland and Orkney until the late 9th and 10th centuries when pressure from Viking incursions and political ascendency of gaelic kingship and identity led to the absorption of the Picts into the political entity known as Alba. This project aims to track the rise and fall of the Northern Pictish Kingdoms through a sustained programme of archaeological and historical research.

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  6. #45
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Searching for Scandinavians in pre-Viking Scotland: molecular fingerprinting of Early Medieval combs, Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 41, January 2014, Pages 1–6

    The character and chronology of Norse colonisation in Early Medieval northern Scotland (8th–10th centuries AD) is hotly debated. The presence of reindeer antler raw material in ‘native’ or ‘Pictish’ type combs from the Orkney Isles, northern Scotland has been put forward as evidence for a long and largely peaceful initial period of cultural contact, as opposed to a shorter, more polarised period probably in the late ninth century. Here this hypothesis is tested using a minimally-destructive collagen peptide mass fingerprinting method (ZooMS) to speciate the raw material of 20 combs. Eleven were identified as red deer, four as reindeer and one as whale. The accuracy and gentleness of this method was tested by the subsequent application of ancient DNA (aDNA) methods to fourteen of the same samples: in ten, amplification was successful and all supported the preliminary ZooMS identification. All ‘native’-type combs in the sample are identified as red deer, and all Norse types as reindeer. These results challenge previous species identifications for these combs' raw materials. The balance of evidence no longer supports the existence of a long period of cultural contact between Atlantic Scotland and Scandinavian settlers before the late 9th century. ZooMS is shown to have considerable potential for identification of worked bone and antler artefacts, with applications in archaeology and wildlife/art-history forensics.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05440313002781

  7. #46
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Gordon Noble, Meggen Gondek, Ewan Campbell and Murray Cook, Between prehistory and history: the archaeological detection of social change among the Picts, Antiquity, Volume: 87 Number: 338 Page: 1136–1150 http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/087/ant0871136.htm

    The development of small-scale kingdoms in the post-Roman world of north-western Europe is a key stage in the subsequent emergence of medieval states. Recent excavations at Rhynie in north-eastern Scotland have thrown important light on the emergence of one such kingdom, that of the Picts. Enclosures, sculptured ‘symbol stones’ and long-distance luxury imports identify Rhynie as a place of growing importance during the fifth to sixth centuries AD. Parallels can be drawn with similar processes in southern Scandinavia, where leadership combined roles of ritual and political authority. The excavations at Rhynie and the synthesis of dated Pictish enclosures illustrate the contribution that archaeology can make to the understanding of state formation processes in early medieval Europe.
    Supplementary material on open access.

  8. #47
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Manning the ramparts: a hillfort on the edge of Empire

    http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index....edge-of-empire

    In 2012, a team from Rampart Scotland carried out an archaeological investigation at Sheriffside, a large crop mark site some 20 miles to the east of Edinburgh. Unexpectedly, a ditch measuring over 8m across and up to 2.80m deep was uncovered, which appears to represent the final phase of enclosure of the hillfort. Currently, this is the largest ditch discovered in the region and has produced a C14 date range of AD 211-384.

    Archaeologically, this date range and re-cutting of the ditch is extremely interesting, as it falls into a turbulent era in the history of Southern Scotland. After the Romans withdrew behind Hadrian’s Wall in the early 3rd century AD, the Picts carried out frequent raids and may have forced the local tribes such as the Votadini into taking defensive action to protect themselves and their livestock.....
    One of the illustrations is amazing - a Roman dice tower in the Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn, with lettering reading
    Pictos Victos – Hostis Deleta – Lvdite Secvri”, translated to mean “The Picts defeated – the enemy wiped out – play without fear”.

    Vettweiss-Froitzheim_Dice_Tower.jpg

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  10. #48
    Senior Member George Chandler's Avatar
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    I want to dig up this topic again and present my "theory" with the hopes that those who are interested and pick apart at their leisure and detail why you think my theory is incorrect.

    For about 4 years now I've been trying to determine the origins of the 9919 RecLOH S1051 Family. The two theories which I've been working on is that most if not all have a history of being from Pictish culture. The other theory (due to my own family lore) is that we come from Denmark originally. The problem with this second theory is that I can't find any evidence of a 9919 cluster or connection to Denmark even though many of the 9919's come from areas where a Danish Viking presence was obvious.

    This is going to be a bit wordy but has to be to make my case -so back to the first theory here is what we know. The 9919 S1051 seem to share (so far all but A9) 5 main SNPs below DF13 which in my opinion are Bell Beaker. So far most seem to go their separate ways genetically after these 5 main SNPs. The ancestral value appears to be 12 at DYS640 as the only 9919 type who doesn't have this is the 9919B's. We know that the 9919A4's share the 5 main SNPs with the 9919B's and several others including S1050 with the 9919 A4's also having a 12 at DYS640 so it is pretty conclusive that 12 at DYS640 is ancestral. I'm using that as a clue..knowing full well that some "may" be more recent mutations. There is a cluster within L513 which have a 12 at DYS640 and my thought on that is that a small group of the DF13 people with this mutation and having a 12 at DYS640 had the mutation of L513 and the brother mutation of either S1051, FGC9661, FGC9655, or FGC9658. I list all because I still don't know the position of which happened right under DF13 - I only know that the 5th common SNP of FGC9657 was negative in the 9919 A9 Rayborn results yet positive in all others to date.

    So using the value of 12 at DYS640 as a clue I've been search different projects. What I find is that the value of 12 is showing up in mainly in Scotland for those being L21+. What is also interesting is that the there seem to be quite a few who are "likely" 9919A4's. The 9919 B's who they are related to are thought to be from Lowland Scotland. I know that it is suggested that there is no connection between the Pictones and the Picti of Scotland but out of the non 9919 L21's from France who have the 12 at DYS640 both have a history of being from the Nantes areas which was also tribal Pictone. Both are currently being tested for S1051, FGC9661 & FGC9655 to see if there is a connection. The STR pattern of both is very different and admittedly we can't say for sure if they have always been there in the area or not prior to the 1500's.

    What is very interesting is that the clusters A1,A2,A3,A4 etc seem to share a MRCA within the past 1,300 years or less and yet the 5 main SNP's are quite old being ~4,000-5,000 years ago. For a group being this old and this unique you would think that it should be as prevalent it's other brother SNP's such as L513, DF49, L1335 etc but it isn't. In my opinion something has happened to this group which has bottle necked the population. So just to qualify here is what I believe:

    1.) Not all Picts were of a single genetic race.
    2.) It's possible that not all 9919 S1051 were found within Pictish culture.
    3.) There could be a connection genetic connection between the Pictones and Picti post Bell Beaker but it would be difficult to prove.
    4.) There was possibly a Pictish or Pictone tribe found within the confederation of what is known as the Caledonian Picts but it was never documented or identified.
    5.) The Picti of Caledonia were a closed population for some time which reflects the language difference.


    Any thoughts?

    George

  11. #49
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Chandler View Post
    1.) Not all Picts were of a single genetic race.
    If by 'race' you mean a single Y-DNA haplogroup, I think you are on very safe ground. I'd say it is wildly unlikely that all the British tribes north of Hadrian's Wall just happened to have men of all the same haplogroup.


    2.) It's possible that not all 9919 S1051 were found within Pictish culture.
    Again you are on safe ground.

    3.) There could be a connection genetic connection between the Pictones and Picti post Bell Beaker

    4.) There was possibly a Pictish or Pictone tribe found within the confederation of what is known as the Caledonian Picts but it was never documented or identified.
    I really wish that people could let go of this idea. I realise that it is tempting to try to link two names that sound similar. But it doesn't make any sense. The fact that scholars expert in this very topic of the Picts wouldn't even waste a sentence debunking this idea should tell you something. It has never even been on the scholarly radar. It is not seriously discussed. It appeals only to amateurs.

    Picti was the Roman name for all the British tribes north of their border. These tribes were named in the 2nd century AD by Ptolemy. There were no Picti or Pictones. The Pictones were a tribe in Western France at the time of Ptolemy's geography. Isodore of Seville gives us the meaning of Picti = tattooed.

    5.) The Picti of Caledonia were a closed population for some time which reflects the language difference.
    Pictish was in fact very similar to Brittonic. You could call it a dialect of Brittonic. There would be some linguistic drift apart after centuries each side of a barrier (Hadrian's Wall), but there were comings and goings across that border.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-26-2014 at 04:34 PM.

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  13. #50
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Accidental duplicate.

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