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Thread: Correlation of R1b with mt DNA H? autosomal DNA?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Seems in deep time its a false correlation. The Iberian H seems to have arrived in the west long before R1b, in the early Neolithic or even earlier than that. R1b seems to have arrived 3000 years or more later. I also feel we should bear in mind that the modern peak of these western H clades may, like R1b, be partially due to the extreme westerly position simply meaning less dilution over the last many thousands of years. It may not have always been the case just as for R1b it peak seems to be in areas off the beaten track of the waves of the last 2 or 3000 years. Or perhaps at one time the peak was not so hyper-peripheral and was more general across western Europe.

    Also, we need to be careful that the beaker peak for H in Germany was not simply due to high status dynasties being represented in the burials who were never typical of the population.

    Funny enough given the problem with the lack of convincing evidence that R1b had a major west to east out of Iberia phase except perhaps DF27 I had been thinking for a while that the main very early connector between Iberia and central Europe could have been movement of females and that perhaps their importance in the spread of cultural change is being underestimated. Perhaps even the earliest beaker potteries flow east along the Med. from Iberia did owe a considerable amount to female movement which at a high level could have been important for treaties and alliances between areas. I know the spread of Neolithic pottery type was at one stage considered a female craft that allowed styles to move among marriage network zones.

    It is interesting to hypothesis that the primitive beaker phase (which lacked several beaker package aspects) of beaker in Iberia could have developed into the full package beaker phase through a meeting of Iberian influences through females moving along the Med. towards the Alps and perhaps meeting an R1b element in the Alps. Perhaps this even commenced in pre-beaker times and these kind of marriage alliances between western high status brides and Alpine metal prospectors saw the pre-beaker movement of R1b mettalurgists into the west from the Alps area. This could have been the way that friendly agreements to allow prospecting, extraction etc were set up. Such a network could have created distinctive male and female dynastic y and mtDNA balance fairly early and when further expansion happened this may have been spread by similar marriages both between beaker people and local groups looking to invite in beaker people and also between groups of beaker people themselves.
    What do we know about mt H13a1a ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David
    Now, both H13a1a and R1b were recently found in late Neolithic Bell Beaker remains from Germany (see here and here). Moreover, today H13a1a shows a peak in frequency and diversity in the Caucasus, particularly in Dagestan, but also occurs at low frequencies in Italy, Sardinia and Iberia. Interestingly, R1b is found at fairly high frequencies among some ethnic groups in and around Dagestan, like the Lezgins, and obviously also common in Italy and Iberia.

    So what am I getting at? Well, it looks like a group with loads of R1b from what is now Dagestan or surrounds - perhaps the deep ancestors of Bell Beakers and Minoans - learned to sail, crossed the Mediterranean Sea from east to west, settled a few islands along the way, and eventually their descendants conquered much of Western and Central Europe. This is certainly not the most parsimonious theory of how R1b might have appeared on the scene in Western Europe during the late Neolithic, but it does make sense considering all the data.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...ronze-age.html

    For effect, he has "leaping bull" art from Crete and compares it with the bullfighting in Spain.
    Bull-leaping is a motif of Middle Bronze Age figurative art, notably of Minoan Crete, but also found in Hittite Anatolia, the Levant, Bactria and the Indus Valley
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-leaping
    Last edited by Mikewww; 05-17-2013 at 04:46 PM.

  2. #42
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    From Roostalu (2009)...

    "The more frequent clades, characteristic of the European group of populations, are H1, H3, H5a."

    "The relatively high frequency of H13a1, together with those of H2a4 and H6a, characterizes Daghestan populations, distinguishing them from other northern Caucasus populations."

    So here we have opposite subclades of H in two different areas...H1 and H3 in Spain and H2, H6 and H13 in Dagestan. In Brotherton (2013) we have H2 appearing in a Unetice sample, H6 appearing in a Corded Ware sample and H13 appearing in a Bell Beaker sample. Needless to say, three flavors of H that are common in Dagestan appearing in three different cultural complexes does not get me excited, and in no way shows an association with any Y halpogroup.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 05-17-2013 at 06:07 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    From Roostalu (2009)...

    "The more frequent clades, characteristic of the European group of populations, are H1, H3, H5a."

    "The relatively high frequency of H13a1, together with those of H2a4 and H6a, characterizes Daghestan populations, distinguishing them from other northern Caucasus populations."

    So here we have opposite subclades of H in two different areas...H1 and H3 in Spain and H2, H6 and H13 in Dagestan. In Brotherton (2013) we have H2 appearing in a Unetice sample, H6 appearing in a Corded Ware sample and H13 appearing in a Bell Beaker sample. Needless to say, three flavors of H that are common in Dagestan appearing in three different cultural complexes does not seem get me excited, and in no way shows an association with any Y halpogroup.
    It appears as though our IE evangelist friends are doing their best to convince us there is an association... from your web site.
    http://r1b.org/?page_id=112#comment-217

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    From Roostalu (2009)...

    "The more frequent clades, characteristic of the European group of populations, are H1, H3, H5a."

    "The relatively high frequency of H13a1, together with those of H2a4 and H6a, characterizes Daghestan populations, distinguishing them from other northern Caucasus populations."

    So here we have opposite subclades of H in two different areas...H1 and H3 in Spain and H2, H6 and H13 in Dagestan. In Brotherton (2013) we have H2 appearing in a Unetice sample, H6 appearing in a Corded Ware sample and H13 appearing in a Bell Beaker sample. Needless to say, three flavors of H that are common in Dagestan appearing in three different cultural complexes does not seem get me excited, and in no way shows an association with any Y halpogroup.
    Since H13 is a big deal in Dagestan, it's probably time to dust off Dienekes' work. I think there must be some correlations with R1b in this mess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    The most notable thing about this figure is the relative absence of the West Asian component in the periphery of Europe. The lowest values are seen in Basque, Sardinian, Orcadian, White Utahns, Lithuanians, Finns, and Scandinavians (in no particular order).

    It is worthwhile to order the European populations in terms of their Dagestan component. Excluding the populations of the Caucasus, these are, in ascending order: Basque (0.7%), Sardinian, Cypriot, Belorussian, South Italian/Sicilian, Lithuanian, Tuscans, Portuguese, Greek (3.8%), Vologda Russian, Romanian, Finnish, Spaniards, North Italian, Dodecad Spaniards, Dodecad Russian, Chuvash, Hungarian, French (7.9%), German, Scandinavian, White Utahn, Orcadian (12.6%).

    Interpreting this pattern is not easy, but it does seem that this component seems to have a V-like distribution, achieving its maximum in Caucasus and its environs, then undergoing a diminution, and achieving a secondary (lower) frequency mode in NW Europe.

    The surprising appearance of the homonymous Dagestan component in India suggests a widespread presence of a common ancestry element. The West Asian element, by comparison seems to have a more normal /\-like distribution around its center in Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran region. It does reach the Atlantic coast, but is lacking in Scandinavia and Finland, and also in India itself.

    This is just a piece of a broader puzzle, and the picture is not yet clear. However, we can tentatively say that whatever brought the "Dagestan" component to India was not a unidirectional process, but also brought a similar population element to western Europe.
    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/...in-europe.html

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Since H13 is a big deal in Dagestan, it's probably time to dust off Dienekes' work. I think there must be some correlations with R1b in this mess.

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/...in-europe.html
    If I'm not mistaken, Dienekes sees an IE-speaking J2 migration as being responsible for the West Asian component in the upper Indian castes, no?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, Dienekes sees an IE-speaking J2 migration as being responsible for the West Asian component in the upper Indian castes, no?
    I'm not sure how he related J2 to the West Asian component but here is what he says about J2 and R1a1. This quote is from 2005 so he may have adjusted since then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    More fascinating is the finding that the main haplogroup distinguishing the northern Indian brahmins from the lower castes is J2 (referred to as HG9). I have long argued that haplogroup J2, associated with the early Neolithic expansions was also the PIE lineage par excellence, and this certainly supports this theory. It may very well be that in early times, the Indo-Iranians emerged as J2-bearing Indo-Europeans diffused into the R1a1-bearing east, with the resulting J2/R1a1 then settling on the Iranian plateau and invading India from the north
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11...oup-j2-in.html
    Last edited by Mikewww; 05-17-2013 at 09:05 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm not sure how he related J2 to the West Asian component but here is what he says about J2 and R1a1. This quote is from 2005 so he may have adjusted since then....
    Here is a 2011 update as it relates to his discussion on the Tocharians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    A recent paper by Zhong et al. provides rich data on Uyghurs that can be used to carry out this program.

    The phylogeographic analysis of these lineages does leave some candidates:

    Haplogroup D can be excluded as Mongolian/Tibetan
    Haplogroup E can be excluded as Mediterranean/African
    Haplogroup C can be excluded as Altaic/South Asian (C5)
    Haplogroup G2a* (West Asian) does not seem to have an important presence (3 samples)
    Haplogroup H can be excluded as South Asian
    Haplogroup I can be excluded as a European outlier (1 sample)
    Haplogroup J*(xJ2) can be excluded as NE Caucasian/Semitic with small presence (2 samples)
    Haplogroup NO; haplogroup N has been founded in a Xiongnu context, so it is likely intrusive; O is East Eurasian
    Haplogroup Q is also associated with Xiongnu nomads from Pengyang

    This analysis leaves four candidates: J2-M172, R1a1a-M17, R1b-M343, and L-M20.
    We can exclude L-M20 because its overall low frequency in most populations makes it difficult, at present, to make a definitive pronouncement on its origin, except perhaps for its Indian L1 clade which is absent here.

    J2, present in both its J2a and J2b subclades here at substantial frequencies has an origin in West Asia, as well as a substantial presence among Indo-Iranian speakers. While it is possible (indeed likely, in my opinion) to have been present among the Tocharians, we cannot exclude the possibility that it represents either a specifically Iranian influence, or even something earlier than both.

    R1a1a is present in both the steppe, as well as South Asia and West Asia. Its high frequency among some Indo-Iranian populations also makes it difficult to ascribe a specifically Tocharian origin to it.

    This leaves only R1b-M343 as a candidate. Have we found a genuine Tocharian genetic signature?
    Then he goes into this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    The West Asian roots of R-M343 (?)

    R-M343 and its main R-M269 clade are in a sense exasperating: the combination of their widespread distribution from Africa, the Atlantic, to the depths of Inner Asia, combined with their apparent Y-STR-estimated youth make it nearly impossible to associate them with a specific archaeological or historical phenomenon.

    Where could R-M269 have come from? It was not present, as far as we can tell, in early Bronze Age Xinjiang, and neither has it been detected in south Siberians. The steppe/"northern" route seems out.

    A southern route, from the Indian subcontinent also seems out, as despite its ubiquity elsewhere in Eurasia, it seems to have (mostly) skipped both India and (to an extent) Pakistan.

    An indigenous origin seems highly unparsimonious, as it would require that it trek all the way to the Atlantic, but make hardly an impact in either East Asia or South Asia.

    As far as I can tell, the only explanation for the presence of R-M343 in Xinjiang is West Asia, or at least Central Asia west of the Tarim. There it can be found at a high frequency in Armenians, Turks, north Iranians, and Lezgins among others. And, unlike both J2 and R1a1a, R-M343 does not seem to be Indo-Iranian (due to its absence in India).
    He goes into the autosomal evidence but I don't see a strong conclusion as it relates to M343.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...n-origins.html

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Since H13 is a big deal in Dagestan, it's probably time to dust off Dienekes' work. I think there must be some correlations with R1b in this mess.

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/...in-europe.html
    Interesting that Chuvash appear high. I might be getting confused but I think it was them who were recently picked out in a new study as a new pole of genetic variation and also have a freakishly high R1b count (I think it was L23*).

  9. #49
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    I copied this over from another thread so we could look at the Dodecad analysis with a little more focus. I also expanded the thread title to include potential autosomal correlations because I think all of this plays togther... to support or not support various hypotheses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Dodecad K12b Irish compared Central Europe. R1b/R1b

    Irish_D average Dodecad-[Gedrosia-11.9%][Atlantic/Med- 42.7%][North Euro-45.1%][Caucasus-0.2%]
    Silesia Z2105 L277- L584--[Gedrosia-5.4%][Siberian-1%][Atlantic/Med- 26.6%][North Euro-54.5%][South Asian-0.5%][Caucasus-11.9%]

  10. #50
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    R1b and H are the dominant groups in Ireland so some of them must have arrived in Ireland together.

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