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Thread: Scarce examples within Z93

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    Another interesting find -- to the Armenian Z93* men, we now have one case to add of an Armenian Z94+ L342+ L657- Z2124-.
    Thanks for sharing. By now, we have evidence that the root of Z93 and the root of Z282 can be found in East Anatolia; more than 90% of all R1a individuals belong to one of these two major branches of R1a. This fits to my assumption that R1a (like almost all West-Eurasian haplogroups) started its success story from the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    As to the specific Z283 question, I am not sure about this but I suspect there is lower variety in it than in Eastern Europe. My colleague Michał would be much better to address this than I would.
    There might be some latest SNP data I am not aware of but based on the STR diversity I don't see that Eastern Europe has a higher variety in Z282* individuals.
    http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/05/r1a-tree.html
    STR67 R1a Z282+ June 2013 radial tree.jpg
    STR67 R1a Z282+ June 2013 rectangual tree.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Good info. I was trying to ask if you see that as lineage brought from Europe or part of West Asian diversity? I think you answered my question.
    There is no evidence that his lineage was brought from Europe to Anatolia.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I believe he is a Zazaki speaker. I wonder if that gives us more info on its origins.
    He is 1/8 Kurdish (+7/8 Turkish), only his paternal great-grandfather is Kurdish and I think his Kurdish ancestry was Kurmanji, not Zaza.
    Last edited by Palisto; 06-18-2013 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #12
    Any Z93* among the Kurds? I do think R1a originated somewhere between Eastern Anatolia and the Caspian shores of Iran and Azerbaijan.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Any Z93* among the Kurds? I do think R1a originated somewhere between Eastern Anatolia and the Caspian shores of Iran and Azerbaijan.
    This is what I collected so far:

    http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/...a-part-ix.html

    Haplogroup R1a
    1x R1a (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
    11x R1a a.k.a. hg3(Eu19) (Iraqi Kurds in Nebel et al., 2001)
    7x R1a1a-M17 (Zaza from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
    11x R1a1a-M17 (Kurmanji from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
    2x R1a1a-M17 (Kurds from Turkmenistan in Nasidze et al., 2005; originally used in Wells et al., 2001)
    12x R1a1a-M17 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
    11x R1a1a-M17 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup predictor)
    1x R1a1a (Z93+, L342+, L657-, Z2122-)(Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)
    1x R1a1a (Z283+, Z282+, Z284-, M458-, Z280-, subclade 3 only his paternal great-grandfather is Kurdish from Turkey)
    1x R1a1a (Alevi Zaza from Dersim/Turkey)
    1x R1a1a (Alevi Kurmanji from Dersim/Turkey)
    1x R1a1a (Kurd from Turkey)
    1x R1a1a (Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)

    There is one with Z93+, L342+, L657-, Z2122-; no further SNP testing has been made.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    There might be some latest SNP data I am not aware of but based on the STR diversity I don't see that Eastern Europe has a higher variety in Z282* individuals.
    AFAIK, there is no new SNP data that would make the classification of different Z282* members more secure. However, your tree seems to predict that the Asian members of paragroup Z282* belong to different (separate) potential sub-branches of Z282, each of them including both Asians and Europeans. By contrast, our co-admin responsible for the Z283/2*section (Mariusz Wilkoszewski) is more inclined to believe that all known Asian members of Z282* belong to a specific West Asian sub-branch of Z282, although this group seems to include at least one Z282* member from Europe (Ukraine). This West Asian cluster 3.B3 is predicted to be very old, so its very existence is very intriguing. However, I haven't seen any calculations suggesting that the age of 3.B3 is older than the age of all European Z282* clusters taken together.

    Most importantly, we shouldn't separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three huge SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) that are practically absent in Asia while contributing to more than 90% of R1a in Europe, so there seems to be no doubt that Z282 (or Z283, if including some rare Z283+ Z282- members) is not only much more numerous in Europe but also its diversity in Europe by far supersedes the diversity of Z283/Z282 in Asia.

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  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    AFAIK, there is no new SNP data that would make the classification of different Z282* members more secure. However, your tree seems to predict that the Asian members of paragroup Z282* belong to different (separate) potential sub-branches of Z282, each of them including both Asians and Europeans. By contrast, our co-admin responsible for the Z283/2*section (Mariusz Wilkoszewski) is more inclined to believe that all known Asian members of Z282* belong to a specific West Asian sub-branch of Z282, although this group seems to include at least one Z282* member from Europe (Ukraine). This West Asian cluster 3.B3 is predicted to be very old, so its very existence is very intriguing. However, I haven't seen any calculations suggesting that the age of 3.B3 is older than the age of all European Z282* clusters taken together.

    Most importantly, we shouldn't separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three huge SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) that are practically absent in Asia while contributing to more than 90% of R1a in Europe, so there seems to be no doubt that Z282 (or Z283, if including some rare Z283+ Z282- members) is not only much more numerous in Europe but also its diversity in Europe by far supersedes the diversity of Z283/Z282 in Asia.

    a) The Z282+ West Asian 3.B clusters include only one member from Ukraine (187138; Alojzy Jaklinski, b. 18 April 1917,Galicia,Ukraine) and 8 members from West Asia. It is clearly a West Asian cluster.
    Additionally, the Ukrainian 187138 is pretty close to 248943 (Wojciech Węglowski; b. 1738 d. 1818) from Poland, and 248943 is in the Z282+ Central-Western European cluster B2A.

    b) I think we should not get fooled by the tremendous European data set and should always make sure that we separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) because M458, Z280 and Z284 are downstream of Z282 and, hence, they cannot say much about the origin of the upstream SNP Z282.
    Essentially, M458, Z280 and Z284 members are descendents of only three Z282 men 6000 years ago (or less). Due to the many European members of the 3 SNPs M458, Z280 and Z284 these subclades appear to be huge and diverse but they are "just" well-described with a lot of newly discovered SNPs.

    c) I have not calculated it but the West Asian cluster 3.B3* cluster alone has more STR67 variability than all European Z282* clusters (3.B1+3.B2) taken together.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    a) The Z282+ West Asian 3.B clusters include only one member from Ukraine (187138; Alojzy Jaklinski, b. 18 April 1917,Galicia,Ukraine) and 8 members from West Asia. It is clearly a West Asian cluster.
    I hope you meant 3.B3 and not 3.B, and if so, I must absolutely agree with you. Actually, I don’t know anybody who would claim that this cluster isn’t West Asian.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    Additionally, the Ukrainian 187138 is pretty close to 248943 (Wojciech Węglowski; b. 1738 d. 1818) from Poland, and 248943 is in the Z282+ Central-Western European cluster B2A.
    Are you suggesting that Jaklinski is a member of the Western-Central European cluster 3.B2 (to which Węglowski seems to belong) or rather that Węglowski is a member of the West Asian cluster 3.B3? I wouldn’t consider any such prediction as well supported.

    Jaklinski, the only European (Ukrainian) member of 3.B3, shows indeed a relatively low GD to Węglowski from 3.B2 who, BTW, shows relatively low GD to all members of Z282*. However, I hope you have also noticed that Jaklinski shows even closer GD to another member of 3.B3 (182305), while Węglowski shows lower GD to some members of 3.B2 (235499 and 192682). Most importantly, Węglowski shows the presence of a characteristic STR-based innovation (DYS464a=11) shared by nearly all members of 3.B2, whereas Jaklinski lacks this characteristic result, while showing instead another relatively rare innovation DYS640=12 that is shared by all known members of the West Asian cluster 3.B3.

    Of course, our classification would be much more secure if both these 3. B members upgraded their STR results to 111 markers. In such case, I would expect that Jaklinski will show DYS445=12 and DYS504=15, while Węglowski should show DYS445<12 and DYS504=14 if our predictions are correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    b) I think we should not get fooled by the tremendous European data set and should always make sure that we separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) because M458, Z280 and Z284 are downstream of Z282 and, hence, they cannot say much about the origin of the upstream SNP Z282.
    I must strongly disagree with your approach. You need to keep in mind that the Z282* members are not closer to the “root” of the Z282 branch than any other members of Z282 (including people from clades Z284, Z280 and M458). The only difference between Z282* and some already known subclades of Z282 is that the mutations defining those potential subclades encompassing Z282* members are not known yet. Of course, we also don’t know whether all members of Z282* belong to a single subclade of Z282 or whether clusters 3.B1 3.B2 and 3.B3 represent some independent subclades (showing different relationship to the already known subclades of Z282), but this alone doesn’t make the only hypothetical West Asian subclade of Z282 (as represented by 3.B3) any more important than the remaining three, four or five potential subclades of Z282 (as represented by Z284, Z280, M458, 3.B1 and 3.B2, all showing European origin).


    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    Essentially, M458, Z280 and Z284 members are descendents of only three Z282 men 6000 years ago (or less).
    This is correct. However, those three people still constitute a larger group than the hypothetical single ancestor of 3.B3. Importantly, we don’t know whether 3.B3 constitutes one of the two hypothetical major sub-branches of Z282 (the other encompassing Z284, Z280, M458 and all European subclusters of Z282*), which would indeed suggest that the West Asian component of Z282 is almost equivalent to the European one. What we know right now is that we have at least five confirmed or potential European subclades of Z282 while only one hypothetical West Asian subclade within this large branch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    Due to the many European members of the 3 SNPs M458, Z280 and Z284 these subclades appear to be huge and diverse but they are "just" well-described with a lot of newly discovered SNPs.
    Are you suggesting that the only potential West Asian subclade of Z282 (3.B3) will turn up to include more members than clades M458, Z280 and Z284 taken together? Do you have any data (or calculations) supporting such claim?


    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    c) I have not calculated it but the West Asian cluster 3.B3* cluster alone has more STR67 variability than all European Z282* clusters (3.B1+3.B2) taken together.
    Please note that the genetic distance between particular members of 3.B3 never exceeds 24 (at the Y67 level), while most members of the remaining group (8 out of 12) show GD>24 to at least some of the non-Asian members of Z282*, and in many such cases the maximal GD value reaches 28 or 29. This clearly suggests that 3.B(x3.B3) is significantly older than 3.B3.
    Last edited by Michał; 08-05-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  8. #17
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    I would also add that there is just no Z282, Z280, Z283, Z284, M458 etc. to be found in India. If these 6000+ybp lines were west or central asian we could expect at least a trace amount in India (say like R1b-M73). Therefore, I think potentially only Z93 is Asian (assuming the English Z93+Z94- are not relict, but recent migrants to the Isles).

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I would also add that there is just no Z282, Z280, Z283, Z284, M458 etc. to be found in India. If these 6000+ybp lines were west or central asian we could expect at least a trace amount in India (say like R1b-M73). Therefore, I think potentially only Z93 is Asian (assuming the English Z93+Z94- are not relict, but recent migrants to the Isles).
    There isn't really any M73 in India.

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