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Thread: Persian (Iranian) Anthropology/Genetics/History/etc discussions

  1. #11
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    Indeed; after accounting for the inevitable founder effects and introgression of local lines, very broadly speaking, Gujarati Parsis are chiefly Iranian paternally and Subcontinental maternally.

    I spoke to an Iranian Zoroastrian some years ago who was more familiar with Parsi history who informed me that interpretation of the genetic data coincided with the early social practices of the Medieval Zoroastrian immigrants. Of course, anecdotes lie at the bottom of the hierarchy of evidence. Would be interesting to see some primary sources regarding this.

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  3. #12
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    [ADMIN] The tangent regarding the implications on social dynamics after Islam's rise following the Byzantine-Sassanid fall can be found here.

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    I think we have found sufficient evidence to conclude that there is some Iberian like ancestry in the family, or at least some sort of link to Iberia/Hispanic america. With my fathers genome phasing with ours in 23andme, one interesting development which occurred, was my brother picking up some Iberian segments. This most likely correlates with why we share so many segments with hispanic people, and to a lesser extent, Iberians from Spain and Portugal. At first it became a possibility that the high sharing with hispanic people could be via shared Lebanese ancestry, however none of our hispanic relatives have any middle eastern ancestry, with some of them even posting family trees going back to the early 1800s, all were of Spanish names, no signs of middle eastern ancestry in their admixture results, or paper trails. So that became pretty evident to not be the smoking gun, I think this provides a very realistic and interesting conclusion. The signals have become too frequent now to simply shelf as coincidence.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 07-22-2016 at 06:12 PM.

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    Iranica has a very detailed section based on the presence of Zoroastrianism in Iran from the last couple hundred years.

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...ans-in-Iran-04

    In the mid 19th century, a few Zoroastrians began settling in Tehran to take advantage of new commercial opportunities. They also were eager to escape the prejudice and persecution suffered by Zoroastrians in the southern provinces of Yazd and Kerman. However, travel was difficult and precarious, and the early numbers of migrants were small. The Gazette estimates that there were 450 Zoroastrians in Tehran in 1877 (Ruz-nāma-ye Irān, no. 318, 9 Rabiʿ II 1294, p. 6, apud Kondo, p. 20).

    A building survey carried out in 1899-1900 indicates that there were forty-five Zoroastrian homeowners in Tehran concentrated in two districts. In the Grand Bazaar, there were a Zoroastrian caravansary, used as a small bazaar and rest house, and a Zoroastrian commercial district in the districts of Aḵtar Taʾin va Sab Sangilaj (Kondo, pp. 20-21). A number of Zoroastrians worked as gardeners in northern Tehran (Ošidari, apud Kestenberg Amighi, p. 143).
    The above is just the introduction, I encourage anybody who has interest in the religion to read the whole thing as it includes some very in depth information.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 07-22-2016 at 06:44 PM.
    Ancestry based on various outputs - Ethnic Persian from Iran (87%), Egyptian (5%), Indonesian/Chinese/Japanese (4%), Greek (1%). The remainder is Serbo-Croatian, French, Iberian and Italian.

  6. #15
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    The Persian community in Britain

    The article below pretty much nails the demographic details regarding the Iranians who migrated to the UK, my family being part of the first wave of the mass exodus of Iranians to flee the revolution/war, I can attest to the accuracy of the information provided.

    Persian emigration to Britain began in the 1950s and consisted mainly of students holding temporary visas from middle to upper class families who were sent overseas for higher education. The majority of Persians living in Britain left Persia due to the events surrounding the Revolution of 1978-1979 and its aftermath. The 1981 population census found a total of 28,617 Persians who were born in Persia living in Britain, with 18,132 males and 10,485 females living in London and 3,295 males and 2,683 females living outside of London (OPCS/GRO(S), 1983). Between 1979 and 1984, an estimated 8,000 Persians arrived in Britain, generating the largest percentage of asylum seekers in the country. The 1991 census indicated that there were 32,262 Persians who were born in Persia who were resident in Britain, 16,856 of whom were living in inner and outer London. The figures listed above do not include the children born to Persian parents, nor those whose immigration status is unclear. The 1991 census, which was the first to include a question on ethnic groups, classified Persians in the Other-Other ethnic category, a residual category made up of 290,000 people (0.5 per cent of the population in Britain) from a number of ethnic groups. Persians cannot be independently distinguished in the census classification, but with the North Africans and Arabs they make up 22.5 per cent (58,720) of the Other-Other category (OPCS/GRO(s), 1993). According to the Persian consulate in London there are approximately 75,000 Persians living in Britain, half of whom live in the London area. They also reported that around 35,000 Persians are registered at the consulate (Interview, Iranian consulate, 12 December, 1999).

    The 1979 Revolution and the waves of migration. Persians living in Britain are from a range of political, socio-economic, religious and ethnic backgrounds. In order to shed light on the settlement experience of this heterogeneous group, it is necessary to refer briefly to the relationship between the series of power struggles leading up to the establishment of the Islamic Republic and the waves of Persians who came to Britain. The first movement of Persians arrived around the time Moḥammed Reżā Shah was overthrown in February 1979, and consisted mainly of families who had benefited from the socio-economic developments of the Pahlavi era and their political positioning at that time. Many were already fluent in English and familiar with the London lifestyle and reside in affluent boroughs of London, such as Kensington and Chelsea, Knightsbridge, Richmond, Hampstead, Swiss Cottage and the City of Westminster.
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...t-britain-xii1
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 07-22-2016 at 06:44 PM.
    Ancestry based on various outputs - Ethnic Persian from Iran (87%), Egyptian (5%), Indonesian/Chinese/Japanese (4%), Greek (1%). The remainder is Serbo-Croatian, French, Iberian and Italian.

  7. #16
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    The Egyptian influence on the Persians


    According to the building inscription of Darius I from Susa, Egyptian architects and workmen took part in the building of Darius’ palace at Persepolis and worked the gold from Sardis and Bactria (DSf 35-37, 49-51 [Kent, Old Persian, p. 143]). The famous headless statue of Darius found at Susa, which is clearly Egyptian in style, should not be considered a “Persian” statue, though (Kervran et al.; Stronach; Porada, pp. 816-18; Calmeyer, p. 296 with a synoptic summary of Egyptian and Persian elements on the statue). Rather, it is a product of Egyptian workmanship which was imported into Persia (Helck, p. 867 n. 13). The wording of the Old Persian inscription on the statue’s base leaves no doubt that the order for its making had been given by Darius (to Egyptian artists) while he was in Egypt (for the possible time of Darius’ stay in Egypt see Hinz and contra Tuplin, pp. 247-56; Calmeyer, p. 286 Anm. 1).
    The statue which is mentioned in the text above, is found below.

    darius_statue.jpg

    Another very interesting Egyptian influence on the Persians might have also came in the form of the Avesta calendar.

    it is highly probable that the Later Avestan calendar, which might have been introduced on 27 March 503 B.C.E., is based on the much older Egyptian calendar, in use by the beginning of the third millennium. Both calendar systems operate within an invariable year of 365 days subdivided into twelve months of thirty days, plus five epagomenal days at the end of the year. Moreover, the first month of the Later Avestan calendar (Farvardīn) coincided at all times with the fourth month of the Egyptian calendar (Khoyak). Thus, the close connection between the two calendar systems seems firmly established (for a detailed discussion see Hartner, pp. 764-72).
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/egypt-ii

    Also the Temple of Hibis



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Hibis

    The image below depicts Darius of Persia, as the pharaoh of Egypt.
    270px-Flickr_-_isawnyu_-_Hibis,_Temple_Decorations_(III).jpg
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 07-24-2016 at 02:31 PM.
    Ancestry based on various outputs - Ethnic Persian from Iran (87%), Egyptian (5%), Indonesian/Chinese/Japanese (4%), Greek (1%). The remainder is Serbo-Croatian, French, Iberian and Italian.

  8. #17
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    Ive recently decided to come back to the specific case regarding possible Iberian connections, due to interesting developments which have occurred in the last 5 months or so making it almost impossible to ignore. First off, by testing my father, and in return phasing his genome with ours in 23andme, one of my brothers scored some Iberian. Given that 23andme has a very good Iberian calculator, and that this happened AFTER phasing, tells me that its very much real, and basically verifies the previous findings that there is some sort of Iberian connection in my family. The other development came after ancestryDNA decided to update their matching algorithm, to date, i count 3 Mexican cousins that showed up after this update, and one or two disappeared due to not meeting the threshold. So this Mexican signal is now persistently showing up across 23andme, GEDmatch, and now AncestryDNA. One of these Mexicans in Ancestrydna have their family tree up going back to around 200-300 years, and all the names are Spanish, no sign of middle eastern ancestry in their trees or genetic results. The middle eastern populations moved to those parts fairly recently, which makes me think that any ME ancestry in Mexicans would be easily found among them if they have any. The final interesting development was when i was checking to see the origins of some segments shared between myself and Mexicans in GEDmatch, out of the random bunch i checked, 3-4 happened to be amerindian segments we shared i.e. we matched on amerindian segments.

    Now GEDmatch happens to be my least confident one of the latest developments, because everybody matches and scores whatever they wish for on there. But when you put all of these individual genetic clues together, its clearly evident that something is going on here, the question is, there's definitely some Iberian/latin like connection in my family, but how it got there is a toss up between two possibilities, Iberia itself, or Mexico. If all of the above are valid, then one would say that the genetic results point to a more likely Mexican source, but a more realistic option would be Iberian, however, neither, especially a Mexican origin, have any historic backing. In fact, an Iranian having Mexican connections sounds absurd, buts its what we are possibly looking at here. Another thing to take note is that the Iberian signals alone in terms of cousins seem to be from both Spain and Portugal. I highly doubt that both entered the frame at separate times individually in my family. They must have come from a single source. The genetic signals would then conclude that its highly likely that this is a Mexican source we're seeing here, in which case if it is, I'm at a loss to explain how it came to be, one possibility may be that this is connected to my possible (not verified) filipino ancestry.

    A more simple way of looking at this is..

    If GEDmatch is to be believed = likely to be mexican.

    If GEDmatch is false = all evidence points to shared Iberian ancestry which brings these cousins up.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 07-26-2016 at 12:30 PM.

  9. #18
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    As a huge fan of the food travel shows hosted by Bourdain and Andrew zimmern, it was nice to see Bourdain finally visit Iran. I think this video displays the youth culture of Iran very well, you will also notice words like "contradicting" and "confusing" thrown around. Both i think, describe the Iran of today. But more importantly it reminds me of the great and unknown culinary heritage of Iran. Video is somewhat distorted, due to the screen reducing in size, but its good enough.



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    The Ossetians have been a topic of intrigue for me recently, as there seems to be a decent amount of historical, cultural and genetic(?) similarities between them and Iranians. Ive found a few bits of information here and there that have interested me, but they seem a bit outdated, so if anybody has more recently studied information that refutes these ones, then feel free to post them.

    A recent summary of the Ossetians from wikipedia.

    In recent history, the Ossetians participated in Ossetian-Ingush conflict (1991–1992) and Georgian–Ossetian conflicts (1918–1920, early 1990s) and in the 2008 South Ossetia war between Georgia and Russia.

    Key events:

    1774 — The Iranian Afsharid Dynasty starts to disintegrate. (The scientific evidence points to their descendants being to some degree integrated into modern day Ossetian Islamic minorities). North Ossetia becomes part of the Russian Empire.[19]
    1801 — Following the Treaty of Georgievsk and the abjuring of Georgia from Persian suzerainty, the modern-day South Ossetia territory becomes part of the Russian Empire, along with Georgia.[20]
    1922 — Ossetia is divided[21][22] into two parts: North Ossetia remains a part of Russian SFSR, South Ossetia remains a part of Georgian SSR.
    20 September 1990 – independent Republic of South Ossetia. The republic remained unrecognized, yet it detached itself from Georgia de facto. In the last years of the Soviet Union, ethnic tensions between Ossetians and Georgians in Georgia's former Autonomous Oblast of South Ossetia (abolished in 1990) and between Ossetians and the Ingush in North Ossetia evolved into violent clashes that left several hundreds dead and wounded and created a large tide of refugees on both sides of the border.[23][24]
    A brief summary of Ossetian genetics via wikipedia

    The Ossetians are a unique ethnic group of the Caucasus, speaking an Indo-European language surrounded by Caucasian ethnolinguistic groups. The Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours.[35] Their genetic make-up is relatively heterogeneous as a result of extensive intermarriage with other ethnic groups in the region. In the Medieval, Imperial Russian, Soviet and contemporary periods it has been and is common to find Christian Orthodox Ossetian intermarriage with Georgians, Russians, Armenians, and Pontic Greeks, and Muslim Ossetian intermarriage with Meskhetian Turks, Kabardays, Ingushes, Chechens, and other Muslim communities of especially the North Caucasus.

    A pretty old genetic study of their haplogroups

    Ivan Nasidze, D. Quinque, I. Dupanloup, S. Rychkov, O. Naumova, O. Zhukova, and Mark Stoneking. "Genetic evidence concerning the origins of South and North Ossetians." Annals of Human Genetics (November 2004) 68 (Part 6): pages 588-599. (mirror) As the article's title indicates, they used data from both South Ossetians and North Ossetians. They studied the mtDNA and Y-DNA of 70 people from 3 previously unstudied North Ossetian populations and combined that data with previously published data about other North Ossetian and South Ossetian populations. (The previously published data came from the articles "Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages", "Haplotypes from the Caucasus, Turkey and Iran for nine Y-STR loci", "Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus", and "The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity".)

    Excerpts from the "Results" section, "MtDNA HVI Sequence Variability" subsection:
    "Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians; average Fst = 0.030) than from Caucasian-speaking populations (average Fst = 0.026), although these values are not significantly different (t = 1.430, p = 0.212). However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran (average Fst = 0.019) than to Caucasianspeaking populations (average Fst = 0.027; t = -2.564, p = 0.026). The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus. South Ossetians share just 4% of their mtDNA sequences with Georgians, whereas they share 12% and 19% of their mtDNA sequences with Iranian-speaking groups from Isfahan and Tehran respectively. The haplotype sharing between North Ossetians and Iranian groups varies from 13% to 31%. With Ingushians, their closest eastern geographic neighbours, North Ossetians share from 22% to 33% of their mtDNA sequences. With Kabardinians, their closest western geographic neighbours, North Ossetians share 26% to 54% of their mtDNA sequences. This relatively high percentage of shared haplotypes between North Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbours can be explained by recent gene exchange among these groups."
    If I'm reading this correctly, the Ossetians do have some maternal genetic ties to Iran, of course, todays peoples are probably a mishmash of multiple other ethnic groups that blended in with them since. An interesting ethnic group nonetheless.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 11-28-2016 at 04:55 AM.

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    What archaelogical culture is usually linked with Kassites in Zagros?

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