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Thread: Pashtun deep ancestry results using Dstats

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Wrora the kandahari dialect of Pashto is very similar to iskhashimi sanglechi in comparison to sorani.
    <br><br>Khor graane, could you post a youtube link for that. With Sorani, I was comparing to W Asian and Farsi mainly.<br>
    <br>

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    Red scarf/shaal/dopatta/bochan/chunni was also tradtionally worn by Kurd brides


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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    To visualize the results in the above table, I plot them using (1 - D) * 1000.

    A couple of observations on the results:

    1- Shared drift with Pashtun 12 is reduced for any sample that has significant African or E Asian ancestry, such as Makrani or Tajik

    2- Pashtuns in the past (> 500 years ago) appear to have been majority W Asian (Kurd type) plus NE European type. This is evident by the scores favoring Kurd and NE Europeans (Finnish, Russian, etc). IMO, ancestral Pashtuns split off from proto-Kurds, and subsequently received a good dose of Andronovo related steppe admixture, a couple of thousand years ago. Later, 0-1000 years ago, they received small doses of admixture component modal to S Indians via admixture with their neighbors. This is reflected in tests that convey information on recent drift, such as ADMIXTURE or 23andMe.

    IMO, had Pashtuns not received significant geneflow from Andronovo types subsequent to their split from proto-Kurds, the tests would have shown them even closer to Kurd C3, as close to Kurd C3, as perhaps Brahui and Balochi are.

    3- Tajiks and Pashtuns have alightly divergent drift histories as shown by Tajiks rank in the table. This is likely due to E Asian admixture decreasing total shared drift. However, tests such as ADMIXTURE and 23andMe will show them close to Pashtuns because they are based on recent admixture events.


    [IMG][/IMG]
    South Asian admixture is surely very ancient in Afghanistan and Pakistan and likely predates West Asian admixture. Pashtuns have much of it which Kurds lack some Pashtuns are even closer to Punjabies than to other Iranics. Kurds have significant SW Asian admixture which Pashtuns lack. I dont think Pashtuns absorbed South Asian admixture recently they rather became recently more West Asian because of migration of West Iranic Persians to Afghanistan which mixed with Pashtuns. Pre-Pashtuns lacking steppe admixture were surely similar to ancestral Kurds because both were dominated by CHG but this connection is very old and of Neolithic or even much older origin.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 05-08-2016 at 02:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    <br><br>Khor graane, could you post a youtube link for that. With Sorani, I was comparing to W Asian and Farsi mainly.<br>
    <br>
    I can't find anything on youtube but since I speak their language, I do know the similarities. I wish I knew Sorani. I see that Kurdi definitely shares quite some similarities with pashto in comparison with farsi. Also, the common words between pashto and Sorani sometimes are common for all other Iranic and some Indic languages, in archaic or a bit twisted form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    South Asian admixture is surely very ancient in Afghanistan and Pakistan and likely predates West Asian admixture. Pashtuns have much of it which Kurds lack some Pashtuns are even closer to Punjabies than to other Iranics. Kurds have significant SW Asian admixture which Pashtuns lack. I dont think Pashtuns absorbed South Asian admixture recently they rather became recently more West Asian because of migration of West Iranic Persians to Afghanistan which mixed with Pashtuns. Pre-Pashtuns lacking steppe admixture were surely similar to ancestral Kurds because both were dominated by CHG but this connection is very old and of Neolithic or even much older origin.
    Inexplicably, I remember some member writing that regarding my father's admixture and how he "must" have had recent Iranian input because of low the South Indian, sarcastic as it may sound, its common for most if not all Southern Pashtun tribes from what I have seen. Also, based on the Y-Dna and mtdna of Afghan Pashtuns, West Asian haplo-groups are very low.
    There is a plodding decline of West Asian type admixture from Southern Afghanistan to eastern (some) Afghanistan to Western Pakistan etc. It’s rather just a function of geography. Eastern and Southern Iranians are closer to Afghan Pashtuns and have higher south central Asian admixture despite not having any Afghan or Pashtun matches on 23andme and gedmatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Pre-Pashtuns lacking steppe admixture were surely similar to ancestral Kurds because both were dominated by CHG but this connection is very old and of Neolithic or even much older origin.
    Agreed, although lets also remember that Georgians, Kurds, Chechens, etc. do have significant Andronovo related admixture as shown by the Dstats I posted for Andronovo-Kurd, Georgian somewhere, albeit less than Pashtuns.

    South Asian admixture is surely very ancient in Afghanistan and Pakistan and likely predates West Asian admixture. Pashtuns have much of it which Kurds lack some Pashtuns are even closer to Punjabies than to other Iranics.
    Disagree. Although there was likely S Indian admixture in Afghanistan and Pakistan a very long ago, I don't believe todays Pashtuns derive from those groups, or even mixed with those groups. If they had, it would show up in the above Dstat, and Kurd C2 or Kurd C3 would be much further down in the table, since they lack it.

    When you say Pashtuns have much of it, I assume you are basing that on ADMIXTURE results. Surely you are aware that ADMIXTURE is allele frequency based, and the clusters formed therein are based on recent drift, mutations, and population mixing. Admixture thousands of years old is not picked up in well. One has to resort to formal methods.

    I dont think Pashtuns absorbed South Asian admixture recently
    If it is ADMIXTURE based then it is very likely recent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Agreed, although lets also remember that Georgians, Kurds, Chechens, etc. do have significant Andronovo related admixture as shown by the Dstats I posted for Andronovo-Kurd, Georgian somewhere, albeit less than Pashtuns.



    Disagree. Although there was likely S Indian admixture in Afghanistan and Pakistan a very long ago, I don't believe todays Pashtuns derive from those groups, or even mixed with those groups. If they had, it would show up in the above Dstat, and Kurd C2 or Kurd C3 would be much further down in the table, since they lack it.

    When you say Pashtuns have much of it, I assume you are basing that on ADMIXTURE results. Surely you are aware that ADMIXTURE is allele frequency based, and the clusters formed therein are based on recent drift, mutations, and population mixing. Admixture thousands of years old is not picked up in well. One has to resort to formal methods.



    If it is ADMIXTURE based then it is very likely recent.
    Pashtuns derive from Afghanistan and did not migrate from the west . Earlier they likely derive from some East Iranic groups near Tajikistan because the closest linguistic relatives of Pashto are found today there. Also even isolated Pamiri tribes have significant South Asian admixture much less than Pashtuns but they have South Asian Y-DNA and autosomal dna. Pashto is quite an unique East Iranic language with some unique vocabulary but it is by far closest to Pamiri languages and closer to some of it than some Pamiri languages are to each other. They did not splitt of from Proto-Kurds recently. The Y-DNA of tribal Pashtuns is very different from any West Asians including Kurds. Autosomally Pashtuns are clustering between Pamiri/Tajiks and Punjabies some especially in Afghanistan much closer to Pamiri/Tajiks and other slightly closer to NW Indics. Pashto has some Indo-Aryan loanwords from Gandhari and lived in Afghanistan already in Pre-Islamic times the historical Asvaka and maybe even Kamboja are in my opinion somehow linked to Proto-Pashtun tribes of the Indo-Iranian frontier zone
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 05-08-2016 at 09:38 AM.

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Pashtuns derive from Afghanistan and did not migrate from the west
    Wrong. Pashtuns are majority a combination of Caucausus Hunter Gatherer (CHG) and steppe Andronovo related, neither of which are originally from Afghanistan. You know that...

    They did not splitt of from Proto-Kurds recently
    I already agreed with you on that. Remember ^. No need to bring this up again. Nowhere did I say recently.


    Autosomally Pashtuns are clustering between Pamiri/Tajiks and Punjabies some especially in Afghanistan much closer to Pamiri/Tajiks and other slightly closer to NW Indics.
    I have stated this myself earlier in the thread, but this is based on ADMIXTURE, and anyone very familiar with the program like myself, should tell you that the allele frequencies that the program cluster samples on is based on recent genetic drift, mutations, and mixing events. So basically any group who has lived in an area for a few hundred years will cluster with their neighbors. All it proves is that Pashtuns have been in their present area for a few hundred years, nothing more and nothing less.


    Formal methods such as dstats, which all the major papers base their analysis on (you know this also since you have been on this forum for a while) show that Pashtuns share the most TOTAL genetic drift (and not alllele frequenicies based on recent drift - ADMIXTURE) with Kurds, Balochis, Georgians, Chechens, and NE Europeans, and not with Pamiri Tajiks, Afghan Tajiks, Punjabi, and other S Asians. I have no idea why you are denying Dstat results. If Dstats were so unreliable, do you really think all the major paper that are published would be using them? I would like to hear why you think Dstats show this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Wrong. Pashtuns are majority a combination of Caucausus Hunter Gatherer (CHG) and steppe Andronovo related, neither of which are originally from Afghanistan. You know that...



    I already agreed with you on that. Remember ^. No need to bring this up again. Nowhere did I say recently.




    I have stated this myself earlier in the thread, but this is based on ADMIXTURE, and anyone very familiar with the program like myself, should tell you that the allele frequencies that the program cluster samples on is based on recent genetic drift, mutations, and mixing events. So basically any group who has lived in an area for a few hundred years will cluster with their neighbors. All it proves is that Pashtuns have been in their present area for a few hundred years, nothing more and nothing less.


    Formal methods such as dstats, which all the major papers base their analysis on (you know this also since you have been on this forum for a while) show that Pashtuns share the most TOTAL genetic drift (and not alllele frequenicies based on recent drift - ADMIXTURE) with Kurds, Balochis, Georgians, Chechens, and NE Europeans, and not with Pamiri Tajiks, Afghan Tajiks, Punjabi, and other S Asians. I have no idea why you are denying Dstat results. If Dstats were so unreliable, do you really think all the major paper that are published would be using them? I would like to hear why you think Dstats show this?
    I don't get your point and I was not talking about pre-historical genetic components like CHG which predate Pashtun ethnogenesis. Also it is simply against any common sense and other genetic studies or tests showed exact the opposite of what you claim that Pashtuns are closer to Kurds, NE Europeans or Chechens than to Pamiri or non-mongolid Tajiks. Pashto is very similar to Pamiri languages and Pamiri have similar Y-DNA and autosomal dna like Pashtuns . Pashtun ethnicity and language has definetly origins in South Central Asia and not in West Asia. Pashtuns and Kurds are genetically on the different ends of the Iranic genetic spectrum. Tajiks are closer to Kurds than Pashtuns are to Kurds because they are less South Asian/more West Asian and some of them have recent West Iranic ancestry. Hard to say where Pashtuns are exactly from but most Historians and Pashtuns themselves believe that Pashtun originated near the Suleiman mountains between modern day Afghanistan and Pakistan and I would be very surprised if South Asian admixture arrived just in the last 1000 years there. There are zero evidences for a recent migration of Pashtuns into Afghanistan. It is true that Pashtuns expanded rapidly in the last 1000 years and absorbed many locals but this expansion started from a core area in modern day southeastern Afghanistan and West Pakistan.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 05-08-2016 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I don't get your point and it is ridiculous to claim that Pashtuns are closer to Kurds, NE Europeans or Chechens than to Pamiri or non-mongolid Tajiks.
    This is absolutely NOT my claim. I did not come up with this. It is what the evidence shows (dstats). Please address the evidence instead of stating the same thing over and over again.

    I would be very surprised if South Asian admixture arrived just in the last 1000 years there. There are zero evidences for a recent migration of Pashtuns into Afghanistan
    You keep bringing this up again and again, when I have not said that Pashtuns have moved into their present areas recently, or within the last 1000 years. This point is getting old. Please stop.

    You keep avoiding the dstat evidence that Pashtuns share the most TOTAL genetic drift with Kurds, Balochis, Georgians, Chechens, and NE Europeans, and not with Pamiri Tajiks, Afghan Tajiks, Punjabi, and other S Asians.

    Why not address this for change instead of bringing up stuff over and over that I have never said. Do you think that formal methods such as dstats that all the major papers base the lion's share of their analysis on (and not ADMIXTURE) are wrong and unreliable?

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