Page 1 of 16 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 153

Thread: Pashtun deep ancestry results using Dstats

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    Lightbulb Pashtun deep ancestry results using Dstats

    I have always been curious as to why the Sorani Kurdi language sounds the most similar to Pashto from the other languages in the area. Here is a clip from a Kurdi film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZRE2tcaGJI

    Aside from this, I have also wondered why there are common Kurdi-Pashto words, but are missing in Farsi.

    This motivated me to take the time to look at Pashtun deep ancestry using formal methods of genetic analysis. Since these tests reveal information on deep ancestry and population mixing events thousands of years ago, I will explain the difference between these tests, and tests such ADMIXTURE 23andMe, etc. which convey information on much more recent admixture events, perhaps 100-1000 years ago.

    ADMIXTURE, 23andMe, Ancestry DNA, etc.:

    These types of tests are based on allele frequencies or haplotype segment matching, and as such cluster individuals into groups based on shared recent genetic drift, or recent admixture events. In the case of 23andMe for example, their algorithm basically eliminates minor components, or components that have become diluted due to age. As such, it is only informative to admixture events and drift within the last 200 years or so.

    For example, assume there is a group of people in the middle east called A. Lets say that A splits into 2 groups, group B, and group C. B stays in the Middle East, and C migrates to SC Asia. If you test B and C right after they split using 23andMe, the results will show both to be similar. However, if you test B and C 1000 years after they split, 23andMe will very likely show B as about 100% Middle Eastern, and C as 100% South Central Asian, even if B and C remain isolated and don't mix with any other groups.

    In other words, let us say that A is common ancestor of some Kurds and some Brahui or Baloch, and B represents Kurds, and C Baloch. After A splits into B and C, 23andMe will show both B and C (Kurd and Baloch) as 100% Middle eastern, but 1000 years after the split, 23andMe will show B as 100% Middle Eastern, and C as 100% SC Asian, even if B & C (Kurd and Baloch) remain isolated for 1000 years and don't mix with any other groups.

    The reason for the different results for B and C after 1000 years is allele frequency change due to drift, mutation, and natural selection.

    Keep in mind that the number of SNPs that define a population cluster, such as E Asian or Sub-Saharan African, in ADMIXTURE can be as few as 1000 SNPs. In other words, if one tests 100,000 SNPs, theoretically, 2 individuals can show up as 100% E Asian, even if there is disagreement in 99,000 of their SNPs, as long as those component defining allele frequencies for the 1000 SNPs match the E Asian reference.


    FORMAL METHODS SUCH AS DSTATS, QPADM, ETC.:

    Formal methods, by contrast to the above, are based on shared total drift, and whereas in the above example, the results may be driven by as few as 1000 SNPs, with Dstats for example, the results are based on all the 100,000 SNPs, and not the cluster defining 1000 SNPS as in the above example.

    Therefore, in the above example, if B & C were one group (A) for 100,000 years, then split 1000 years ago, Dstat results will be reflect a very high similarity between B and C, because they were one group (A) for 100,000 years (share a very long drift path with each other). The last 1000 years will not have the impact as with ADMIXTURE or 23andMe. 23andMe on the other hand will ignore for the most part that B & C shared drift for 100,000 years, and will likely show them very different from each other, since the results
    are driven by admixture events, drift, mutations, etc in the last couple of hundred of years only.

    This is why 23andMe is totally useless for determining total shared ancestry in 2 groups.

    Here is an overly simplified example to help illustrate the concept of total shared drift.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    So in this example the total shared drift between Kalash and Kurd or Baloch is the sum of the drift paths a + b (till the Kalash split point), whereas the total shared drift between Kurd and Baloch is larger, because of the longer total drift paths, a+b+c+d (till the Kurd-Baloch split)

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (05-08-2016), dp (05-09-2016), Hanna (05-11-2016), Kaido (05-13-2016), khanabadoshi (05-07-2016), Mellifluous (05-07-2016), NK19191 (05-07-2016)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    The Pashtun samples I will be using are HGDP Pakistani Pashtun samples, as well as some Afghan Pashtun samples. I will run tests time permitting and post results over the next couple of weeks.

    To start, I compare Pakistani Pashtun DNA sample HGDP00244 with various European, W Asian, SC Asian, S Asian, and African samples.

    Each line of the following table compares 2 samples, Iraqi Kurd sample C3 with another sample, to see, which one shares the most genetic drift (similarity) with Pashtun12 (HGDP00244). If the D score is +ve, that indicates that Kurd C3 is more similar to Pashtun12 than sample 2 . If -ve, that indicates that sample 2 is closer to Pashtun 12. Since there are no -ve results, that means that Kurd C3 is more similar to Pashtun 12 than all the other samples in the study.

    For example, in the Kurd C3 - Kalash comparison the D score is small, indicating that Kurd C3 is only slightly more similar to Pashtun 12 than Kalash, whereas with Kurd C3 - Somali, the D score is large, indicating that Kurd C3 is much more similar to Pashtun 12 than Somali is to Pashtun 12.

    The table is sorted with the most similar to Pashtun 12 to least similar.


    NO SAMPLE 1 SAMPLE 2 TARGET D SCORE Z SCORE SNPs
    1 .Kurd_C3 .Kurd_C3 Pashtun12 0.000 0.00 104551
    2 .Kurd_C3 Kalash Pashtun12 0.002 0.37 104551
    3 .Kurd_C3 Balochi1 Pashtun12 0.004 0.54 104269
    4 .Kurd_C3 Russian Pashtun12 0.004 0.93 104551
    5 .Kurd_C3 Tajik_Pomiri Pashtun12 0.004 0.89 104551
    6 .Kurd_C3 Finnish Pashtun12 0.005 1.04 104551
    7 .Kurd_C3 French Pashtun12 0.006 1.17 104551
    8 .Kurd_C3 Armenian Pashtun12 0.007 1.35 104551
    9 .Kurd_C3 Balkar Pashtun12 0.007 1.50 104551
    10 .Kurd_C3 Burusho Pashtun12 0.008 1.69 104551
    11 .Kurd_C3 Azeri Pashtun12 0.009 1.60 60968
    12 .Kurd_C3 Greek Pashtun12 0.009 1.90 104551
    13 .Kurd_C3 Sindhi Pashtun12 0.009 1.91 104551
    14 .Kurd_C3 GujaratiC Pashtun12 0.010 2.03 104551
    15 .Kurd_C3 Iranian Pashtun12 0.010 2.11 104551
    16 .Kurd_C3 Tajik_Afghan Pashtun12 0.011 2.21 99002
    17 .Kurd_C3 Turkish Pashtun12 0.011 2.26 104551
    18 .Kurd_C3 Punjabi Pashtun12 0.013 2.47 104551
    19 .Kurd_C3 Sardinian Pashtun12 0.013 2.84 104551
    20 .Kurd_C3 Bengali Pashtun12 0.016 3.13 104551
    21 .Kurd_C3 Druze Pashtun12 0.017 3.53 104551
    22 .Kurd_C3 Makrani Pashtun12 0.017 3.54 104551
    23 .Kurd_C3 Uzbek Pashtun12 0.018 3.62 104551
    24 .Kurd_C3 Ashkenazi_Jew Pashtun12 0.019 3.93 104551
    25 .Kurd_C3 Hazara Pashtun12 0.020 4.09 104551
    26 .Kurd_C3 Brahui1 Pashtun12 0.022 3.49 104319
    27 .Kurd_C3 Palliyar Pashtun12 0.025 3.29 40926
    28 .Kurd_C3 Syrian Pashtun12 0.034 6.90 104551
    29 .Kurd_C3 Saudi Pashtun12 0.034 6.99 104551
    30 .Kurd_C3 BedouinB Pashtun12 0.038 7.90 104551
    31 .Kurd_C3 Han Pashtun12 0.039 6.83 104551
    32 .Kurd_C3 Somali Pashtun12 0.192 39.22 104551

  4. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     Hanna (05-11-2016), Kaido (05-13-2016), khanabadoshi (05-07-2016), Mellifluous (05-07-2016), NK19191 (05-07-2016)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    To visualize the results in the above table, I plot them using (1 - D) * 1000.

    A couple of observations on the results:

    1- Shared drift with Pashtun 12 is reduced for any sample that has significant African or E Asian ancestry, such as Makrani or Tajik

    2- Pashtuns in the past (> 500 years ago) appear to have been majority W Asian (Kurd type) plus NE European type. This is evident by the scores favoring Kurd and NE Europeans (Finnish, Russian, etc). IMO, ancestral Pashtuns split off from proto-Kurds, and subsequently received a good dose of Andronovo related steppe admixture, a couple of thousand years ago. Later, 0-1000 years ago, they received small doses of admixture component modal to S Indians via admixture with their neighbors. This is reflected in tests that convey information on recent drift, such as ADMIXTURE or 23andMe.

    IMO, had Pashtuns not received significant geneflow from Andronovo types subsequent to their split from proto-Kurds, the tests would have shown them even closer to Kurd C3, as close to Kurd C3, as perhaps Brahui and Balochi are.

    3- Tajiks and Pashtuns have alightly divergent drift histories as shown by Tajiks rank in the table. This is likely due to E Asian admixture decreasing total shared drift. However, tests such as ADMIXTURE and 23andMe will show them close to Pashtuns because they are based on recent admixture events.


    [IMG][/IMG]

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     dp (05-09-2016), Kaido (05-13-2016), Mellifluous (05-07-2016), NK19191 (05-07-2016)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    Here the comparison involves the average of all Afghan Pashtuns in my dataset (4 samples)

    NO SAMPLE 1 SAMPLE 2 TARGET OUTGROUP D SCORE Z SCORE SNPs
    1 .Kurd_C3 .Kurd_C3 Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.000 0.00 104551
    2 .Kurd_C3 Russian Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.000 0.01 99223
    3 .Kurd_C3 Finnish Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.001 0.29 99223
    4 .Kurd_C3 French Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.001 0.34 99223
    5 .Kurd_C3 Balkar Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.003 0.66 99223
    6 .Kurd_C3 Tajik_Pomiri Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.003 0.76 99223
    7 .Kurd_C3 Kalash Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.003 0.84 99223
    8 .Kurd_C3 Balochi1 Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.005 0.91 98963
    9 .Kurd_C3 Armenian Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.005 1.27 99223
    10 .Kurd_C3 Greek Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.005 1.39 99223
    11 .Kurd_C3 Azeri Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.007 1.46 61094
    12 .Kurd_C3 Turkish Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.007 1.74 99223
    13 .Kurd_C3 Tajik_Afghan Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.008 1.93 99175
    14 .Kurd_C3 Sardinian Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.009 2.26 99223
    15 .Kurd_C3 Iranian Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.010 2.35 99223
    16 .Kurd_C3 Burusho Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.010 2.55 99223
    17 .Kurd_C3 Sindhi Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.010 2.74 99223
    18 .Kurd_C3 Druze Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.014 3.56 99223
    19 .Kurd_C3 Ashkenazi_Jew Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.014 3.52 99223
    20 .Kurd_C3 GujaratiC Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.015 3.55 99223
    21 .Kurd_C3 Uzbek Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.015 3.76 99223
    22 .Kurd_C3 Brahui1 Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.015 2.95 99000
    23 .Kurd_C3 Punjabi Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.016 3.77 99223
    24 .Kurd_C3 Hazara Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.017 4.25 99223
    25 .Kurd_C3 Makrani Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.018 4.56 99223
    26 .Kurd_C3 Bengali Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.019 4.57 99223
    27 .Kurd_C3 Syrian Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.031 7.65 99223
    28 .Kurd_C3 Saudi Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.031 7.68 99223
    29 .Kurd_C3 Palliyar Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.033 5.14 39457
    30 .Kurd_C3 Han Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.035 7.79 99223
    31 .Kurd_C3 BedouinB Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.036 8.84 99223
    32 .Kurd_C3 Somali Pashtun_Afghan Gorilla 0.189 46.45 99223

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     Hanna (05-11-2016), Kaido (05-13-2016), Mellifluous (05-07-2016), NK19191 (05-07-2016)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    This Dstat comparison was done using Kurd C2 instead of Kurd C3. The table and graph show total shared drift with Pakistani Pashtun DNA sample HGDP00262. The results are consistent with those of Iraqi Kurd sample C3.

    Kurd C2 shares more total genetic drift (genetic similarity) with Pashtun18 than all the other W Asian, European, SC Asian, and S Asian samples in the study.

    Kurd C2 is followed by Baloch, then Kalash, then Russian. The NE European affinity of Pashtun 18 is clear, and very likely a result of Andronovo related geneflow from about 2000 years ago.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     Kaido (05-13-2016), NK19191 (05-07-2016)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    Here is my take/theory on what we are seeing:

    First, there is variation among Pashtuns, with some sharing more total drift with Chechens & Georgians than Kurds, but for me the tie-breaker is the closer language similarity between Sorani Kurdi and Pashto, than between Pashto and other area languages. By similarity I mean, pronounciation (see link to a clip in 1st post), words, pronouns, letters such as zh, dz, tz, etc.

    Since Kurds and Pashtuns are very tribal, and lack scholars from 2000 or 3000 years ago, when proto-Pashtuns split off proto-Kurds (ancestors of Kurds and some other caucuses groups such as Georgians and Chechens), we will not likely find any written material to document splits and migrations.

    A plausible scenario to explain this maybe proto-Pashtuns (pre-Andronovo event) split from proto-Kurds (Kurds, Chechens, Georgians, etc) in the caucuses area and migrated to SC Asia. Subsequently, a Kurd group, some Kurds of the Malik Kurd Dynasty, as detailed in the book I posted at

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...hanistan/page2 , left the area known os Ghor when Tamerlane captured it around 1380AD and back-migrated to the Zagros mountains to seek shelter from the Mongols. They would later be known as Sorani Kurds (Kurds from Soran). Perhaps they are related to Soori Pashtuns. That may explain why Sorani sounds like Pashtun and shares vocabulary and grammer with it.

    This may also explain elevated recent SC Asian admixture component in Kurds in general compared to other caucuses groups, and Sorani Kurds (ADMIXTURE), and the relatively high frequency of haplogroup R1a1 among Kurds.

    Again due to the tribal nature of Pashtuns and Kurds, and lack of scholars from around 1380 AD, I doubt we will see anything written. We will just have to depend on genetics and other circumstantial evidence such as language, grammer, pronounciation.

    It appears that the elevated SW Asian input into the Iranian samples in the study is causing them to have less total shared drift with Pashtuns, and placing them further down in the table. Something else that can be causing Iranians to be further down is that they received less Eurasian steppe Andronovo related geneflow than Kurds, Chechens, Georgians and Pashtuns.







  12. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     dp (05-09-2016), K33 (08-30-2016), Mellifluous (05-07-2016), NK19191 (05-07-2016), surbakhunWeesste (05-07-2016)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    42
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Kurd
    Y-DNA
    E-V13
    mtDNA
    J1b3b

    Kurdistan Mahabad Republic Ararat Republic Rojavaya Kurdistane Kurdistan Kingdom Ayyubid Dynasty
    A plausible scenario to explain this maybe proto-Pashtuns (pre-Andronovo event) split from proto-Kurds (Kurds, Chechens, Georgians, etc) in the caucuses area and migrated to SC Asia. Subsequently, a Kurd group, some Kurds of the Malik Kurd Dynasty, as detailed in the book I posted at
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...hanistan/page2 , left the area known os Ghor when Tamerlane captured it around 1380AD and back-migrated to the Zagros mountains to seek shelter from the Mongols. They would later be known as Sorani Kurds (Kurds from Soran).
    Being from the heartland of the traditional region of Soran, and being directly descended from those who even helped to administer the emirate, I find it to be an interesting theory. I've done some research on Soran and I read that the name Soran comes from the colour 'red' (sor) and when Soran first established its rule the land was named after the red rocks that were present during the conquest of Rawanduz, thus it was named 'Soran' meaning 'land of red'.

    I actually have relatives (cousins) that are directly descended from the final ruler of Soran, Muhammad Pasha. DNA testing them would be interesting to see the Y DNA lineage of the rulers. If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Soran belonged to the Rawanduzi clan.
    Last edited by Halgurd; 05-07-2016 at 09:22 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Halgurd For This Useful Post:

     Kurd (05-07-2016)

  15. #8
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    848
    Sex
    Location
    event horizon
    Ethnicity
    Ibex retter; Der Nomad
    Nationality
    Kochyan
    Y-DNA
    R1a......(Dad)
    mtDNA
    U2b2

    Afghanistan United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Here is my take/theory on what we are seeing:

    First, there is variation among Pashtuns, with some sharing more total drift with Chechens & Georgians than Kurds, but for me the tie-breaker is the closer language similarity between Sorani Kurdi and Pashto, than between Pashto and other area languages. By similarity I mean, pronounciation (see link to a clip in 1st post), words, pronouns, letters such as zh, dz, tz, etc.

    Since Kurds and Pashtuns are very tribal, and lack scholars from 2000 or 3000 years ago, when proto-Pashtuns split off proto-Kurds (ancestors of Kurds and some other caucuses groups such as Georgians and Chechens), we will not likely find any written material to document splits and migrations.

    A plausible scenario to explain this maybe proto-Pashtuns (pre-Andronovo event) split from proto-Kurds (Kurds, Chechens, Georgians, etc) in the caucuses area and migrated to SC Asia. Subsequently, a Kurd group, some Kurds of the Malik Kurd Dynasty, as detailed in the book I posted at

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...hanistan/page2 , left the area known os Ghor when Tamerlane captured it around 1380AD and back-migrated to the Zagros mountains to seek shelter from the Mongols. They would later be known as Sorani Kurds (Kurds from Soran). Perhaps they are related to Soori Pashtuns. That may explain why Sorani sounds like Pashtun and shares vocabulary and grammer with it.

    This may also explain elevated recent SC Asian admixture component in Kurds in general compared to other caucuses groups, and Sorani Kurds (ADMIXTURE), and the relatively high frequency of haplogroup R1a1 among Kurds.

    Again due to the tribal nature of Pashtuns and Kurds, and lack of scholars from around 1380 AD, I doubt we will see anything written. We will just have to depend on genetics and other circumstantial evidence such as language, grammer, pronounciation.

    It appears that the elevated SW Asian input into the Iranian samples in the study is causing them to have less total shared drift with Pashtuns, and placing them further down in the table. Something else that can be causing Iranians to be further down is that they received less Eurasian steppe Andronovo related geneflow than Kurds, Chechens, Georgians and Pashtuns.






    Wrora the kandahari dialect of Pashto is very similar to iskhashimi sanglechi in comparison to sorani.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to surbakhunWeesste For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (05-08-2016), Kurd (05-07-2016)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd View Post
    Being from the heartland of the traditional region of Soran, and being directly descended from those who even helped to administer the emirate, I find it to be an interesting theory. I've done some research on Soran and I read that the name Soran comes from the colour 'red' (sor) and when Soran first established its rule the land was named after the red rocks that were present during the conquest of Rawanduz, thus it was named 'Soran' meaning 'land of red'.

    I actually have relatives (cousins) that are directly descended from the final ruler of Soran, Muhammad Pasha. DNA testing them would be interesting to see the Y DNA lineage of the rulers. If I'm not mistaken, the rulers of Soran belonged to the Rawanduzi clan.
    The similarity in how Sorani sounds to Kandhari/Quetta Pashto is very interesting. They also use zh, dz, tz, etc. Here is a clip from the Pastho drama "Sur Shaal" (Red Shawl" would be the best translation). Interestingly, the drama is edited by Hashim Kurd (many Kurds in Balochistan use the last name Kurd)


  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     Halgurd (05-07-2016), surbakhunWeesste (05-08-2016)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    A few similar words.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     dp (05-09-2016), NK19191 (05-08-2016), surbakhunWeesste (05-08-2016)

Page 1 of 16 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Dstats against noise...
    By anglesqueville in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 01-01-2017, 02:14 AM
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-08-2016, 05:00 PM
  3. What is the difference between Afghan and Pashtun?
    By Alanson in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-03-2016, 08:17 PM
  4. Afghan Pashtun Mt-DNA W3a1a
    By Mellifluous in forum W
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-06-2015, 05:11 AM
  5. Interesting Ancient Dstats
    By Kurd in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 10-09-2015, 10:18 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •