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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

  1. #21
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    Metallurgy did not expand via Catalonia, but rather Sardinia, Southern Iberia, Corsica, Southern France.

    See the map in the Opening Post.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    J (including J2) was already present among EEF in Europe and Western Anatolia.

    The number of J samples from the Neolithic is not smaller than of E1b samples.
    J has only been found in two Neolithic samples so far, one from Barcın; Turkey c. 8,200 yBP (I0708) and another from the Sopot culture in Hungary c. 7,000 yBP (ALE 14) both of which were J2. In fact, I0708 from Barcın was Z6048 which is a very specific branch under J2a-M410. So J2 was a minor Neolithic lineage at best. A more likely scenario taking CHG into account is that J2 foragers were still wandering throughout Anatolia when agriculture was taking root and that a few individuals were incorporated into the emerging farming communities, which is similar to what happened with I2a in Europe during the Neolithic. I2c and C1a-V20 were also found in the Barcın samples for instance, so this pattern of forager intrusion into farming communities might well count for other lineages.

    E-V13 was found only once in a Neolithic context, in an Epicardial individual from the Avellaner cave in Spain c. 7,000 yBP, I actually spoke to one of the authors of the Avellaner study in 2014.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 05-03-2016 at 07:28 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Metallurgy did not expand via Catalonia, but rather Sardinia, Southern Iberia, Corsica, Southern France.

    See the map in the Opening Post.
    Then why are all copper age skeletons lacking L23? And further, since the Copper Age went through Sardinia, why didn't there Y-DNA change, nor their autosomal DNA, nor their language?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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  6. #24
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    why didn't there Y-DNA change
    Over 15% of modern Sardinian Y-DNA is actually M269+, and if including V88 then over 17%.

    nor their autosomal DNA, nor their language?
    We don't know if their language changed. It could change from one Non-IE to another Non-IE.

    Autosomal DNA could change too. But if L23 was originally mostly EEF, why should it change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Over 15% of modern Sardinian Y-DNA is actually M269+, and if including V88 then over 17%.
    Yes... and that's the least amount in all of Western Europe.... and genetic wave-of-advance does not work that way. Not sure why anyone would add V88 when we already know it's expansion into Europe occurred thousands of years earlier.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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  9. #26
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    and that's the least amount in all of Western Europe....
    So what?

    If you assume that all Y-DNA expanded from areas where its modern frequency is highest, then this would mean that R1b could not expand from the Russian Steppe too, because it is very few in numbers there today.

    How is my "out of Sardinia" inferior to your "out of Volga Region" then ???

    In both regions L51 is few in numbers today. But Sardinia has some of very basal subclades of L51.

  10. #27
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    If we go solely by frequency, we would need to get back to "Paleolithic continuity in Iberia" theory.

    That's not what I'm saying. In such case V88 originated in Chad, where some tribes have 90%+.

  11. #28
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    If anything, we should look at modern variance rather than frequency.

    According to Myres et al., L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East.

    So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.

  12. #29
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    ^^Why go by modern variance when we can go by ancient variance? In this case, the PC steppe has the most variance hands down, which strongly suggests that R1b-M269 emerged there.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If anything, we should look at modern variance rather than frequency.

    According to Myres et al., L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East.

    So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.
    Modern variance is useless and dances all over the place. A most recent paper had the highest modern L23 variance as Bulgaria. Needless to say, it is not very reliable. Someone years ago someone calculated the highest L21 variance as Nebraska USA!!!
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 05-03-2016 at 09:29 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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