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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    They weren't and neither are modern Iberians. Iberians are mostly EEF despite being mostly R1b.
    All modern Iberians & Italians have more EHG than any Copper Age sample. You can't add a 0% EHG population to a hybrid WHG/EEF population and come up with anything more than 0% EHG. Unless you are trying to say that Copper Age Anatolia was extremely EHG heavy.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 05-03-2016 at 06:06 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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  3. #12
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    Odds are J (J2 in particular) had more to do with the diffusion of metallurgy than R1b-M269.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  5. #13
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    All modern Iberians & Italians have more EHG than any Copper Age sample
    Celts, Romans, Germanic tribes, etc. - all those groups brought some EHG to Iberia.

    And they came after the Copper Age and after the Early Bell Beaker period.

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Celts, Romans, Germanic tribes, etc. - all those groups brought some EHG to Iberia.

    And they came after the Copper Age and after the Early Bell Beaker period.
    An early Bronze Age Iberian already plotted with modern Iberians. Can't remember the sample, but someone will likely chime in. And the Celts were the descendants of Bell Beaker, so how exactly did they get their very high EHG?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    Sweuro wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    The initial expansion was from Iberia into central-Europe, there they mixed with the steppe people, and there was a second expansion of BB from this area, with already steppe ancestry and R1b-P312.
    I agree with this except for the R1b part. They had R1b already during the initial expansion.

    In Central Europe they acquired Steppe autosomal ancestry mediated mostly via CW women.

    In Central Europe there was Corded Ware with 75%+ of Steppe ancestry but R1a, not R1b.

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    And the Celts were the descendants of Bell Beaker, so how exactly did they get their very high EHG?
    They were descendants of just one of many Beaker branches, not of all BB as a whole.

    How they acquired EHG ancestry? - Carleton S. Coon (link) and Sweuro explained how:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post154792

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    They were descendants of just one of many Beaker branches, not of all BB as a whole.

    How they acquired EHG ancestry? - Carleton S. Coon (link) and Sweuro explained how:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post154792
    So if P312 expanded from Iberia and came to dominate all the way up to the Rhine, how did that happen if you are saying that the P312 men overran the locals and only in Central Europe thid the men take on Corded Ware wives? Seems like you will also need to explain the extreme coincidence that L23 derived lineages expanded in the Steppe and in Beria at exactly the same time in two extreme ends of Europe.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    explain the extreme coincidence that L23 derived lineages expanded in the Steppe and in Beria at exactly the same time in two extreme ends of Europe.
    I think that I already did in my Opening Post. BTW, variance of L23 is greatest in the Middle East.

    So if P312 expanded from Iberia and came to dominate all the way up to the Rhine
    Well, those that initially expanded from Iberia were not necessarily already L21 or U152 or U106+.

    They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312* or U106*. More common lineages likely expanded later.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 06:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Odds are J (J2 in particular) had more to do with the diffusion of metallurgy than R1b-M269.
    J (including J2) was already present among EEF in Europe and Western Anatolia.

    The number of J samples from the Neolithic is not smaller than of E1b samples.

  14. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I think that I already did in my Opening Post. BTW, variance of L23 is greatest in the Middle East.



    Well, those that initially expanded from Iberia were not necessarily already L21 or U152 or U106+.

    They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312* or U106*. More common lineages likely expanded later.
    I found a good compilation by Maciamo - out of the 2309 Catalonian samples, a whopping 0% were L51. An Iberian refugium of L51+ (xL11) does not have much weight.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Catalan-Y-DNA
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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