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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

  1. #241
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    ^ IIRC, this is some unstable/unreliable SNP.

  2. #242
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    This Kura-Araxes R1b may be L389*, which exists in Armenia also today, but at low frequency.

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  4. #243
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    Tomenable, I checked the autosomal makeup of this Kura Araxes R1b and he is less EHG (only 12%) than Chalcolithic Armenians and MLBA Armenians and carries some extra WHG. According to Genetiker, he is as dark eyed, dark haired and dark skinned as Natufians. Then I checked on Wikipedia that "An archaeological site in Serbia contains the oldest securely dated evidence of copper making at high temperature, from 7,500 years ago. The find in June 2010 extends the known record of copper smelting by about 800 years, and suggests that copper smelting may have been invented in separate parts of Asia and Europe at that time rather than spreading from a single source. In Serbia, a copper axe was found at Prokuplje, which indicates that humans were using metals in Europe by 7,500 years ago (~5,500 BCE), many years earlier than previously believed"; and "Though not conventionally considered part of the Chalcolithic or "Copper Age", the Vinča culture (Balkans) provides the earliest known example of copper metallurgy."

    If we go by your theory that R1b spread with metallurgy, we could indeed argue that Eastern Mediterranean/Italy was the original area of R1b as evidenced by Villabruna (14000 BC) and Els Trocs (5000 BC) and Lánycsók Vučedol (2800 BC), and R1b spread from the Balkans to the Near East. If I am not mistaken, now we have in Caucasus/ Yamnaya:
    Kura Araxes (Armenia_EBA): I1635 R1b1-M415(xM269) or R1b1a-CTS4244(xV88, P297)
    Armenia MBA R1b-P297(x269)
    Yamnaya Temrta RISE546 R1b-269(xL23)
    Yamnaya Samara, Yamnaya Kalmykia R1b-L23

    In my other post I was speculating along the lines of the Wikipedia article on Kura Axes if this R1b guy spoke Urartuan/Hurrian or Kartvelian language but now I also wonder if he could have spoken the Armenian language. If I am not mistaken, Armenians are still today autosomally very much Neolithic Anatolia.

    Here are the Eurogenes ANE West_Eurasia_K8 results of the Samara Hunter gatherer, pre R1b-M73:
    WHG 52%, ANE 37%, South Eurasian 5%, Near Eastern 0%, East Eurasian 4%
    Very high amount of WHG and no Near Eastern. However, CHG was not known when this analysis was made.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 06-24-2016 at 07:22 PM.

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  6. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ IIRC, this is some unstable/unreliable SNP.
    It indeed has mutated at least twice, but appears very stable.

    Per YFull
    − SRY10831 • PF6234 • PAGE65.1 • SRY1532.1 • SRY10831.1 R-M459
    − SRY10831 • PF6234 • PAGE65.1 • SRY1532.1 • SRY10831.1 BT

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  8. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Rapid diffusion of metallurgy in the 4th millennium BC can be linked with expansion of R1b M269/L23:

    Metallurgy expanded to Iberia across the Mediterranean region and later with Bell Beakers:


    And a map showing how R1b-L51 or maybe pre-L51 L23 (ancestral to ATP3 and Bell Beaker) migrated:




    You might not have known this when you posted your theory of L23 and by extension z2103+ copper smelting. However Arkaim [the settlement at the very top of the diagram you posted was a R1a-93/94 fortified settlement producing copper. Sintashta had war-chariots and special weapons[no composite bow]. Several Sintashta settlements were built over Poltavka-R1b-Z2103.









    A rough idea how R1a-93 dispersed to the South-West of Sintashta settlements.


    A modern day pocket of R1a-93 that is roughly located near the Sintashta fortified settlements. Note significant R1b pockets are also found. This becomes evident





    Burzyyanskiy Disctrict




    http://ftp.anrb.ru/molgen/Lobov_AS.PDF

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  10. #246
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    Bump.

    I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!

    Including Varna culture!

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  12. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Bump.

    I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!

    Including Varna culture!

    Well done. We had a whole thread on it too
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-Eurasia/page4

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  14. #248
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    My idea that Balkan HG ancestry (and their R1b) survived the initial onslaught of Anatolian farmers is also confirmed. Many people found it unlikely due to the degree of population replacement in Early Neolithic Central Europe.

  15. #249
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    Er, ah, if this (from the original post in this thread) was your idea, I don't think the SE Europe paper proves you right at all:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe . . .
    From what I gather, it looks like R1b spent the LGM in a SE European refuge that probably included Ukraine, and evidently lammed out of the Balkans at the end of the Mesolithic/start of the Neolithic and moved into Ukraine.

    Looks like L23 arose on the steppe, which explains its correlation with steppe autosomal dna and its abundant presence thus far in both Yamnaya and Bell Beaker.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  17. #250
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    Perhaps this could explain the almost ubiquitous levels of Ashkenazi R1b being M269, as Ashkenazis seem to have close to 0 admixture from intermarriage on the paternal side.

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