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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

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    Lightbulb R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

    In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...Ice-Age-Europe

    Here I present some evidence linking the rapid expansion of L23 lineages with the spread of metallurgy.

    These are excerpts of "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" by Nissim Amzallag:

    http://www.ajaonline.org/article/300

    Rapid diffusion of metallurgy in the 4th millennium BC can be linked with expansion of R1b M269/L23:



    Metallurgy expanded north with Maykop culture, which contributed R1b-Z2103 to Yamnaya:



    Metallurgy expanded to Iberia across the Mediterranean region and later with Bell Beakers:



    And a map showing how R1b-L51 or maybe pre-L51 L23 (ancestral to ATP3 and Bell Beaker) migrated:



    Previously I've pointed out, that some of the most basal lineages of L51 can be found in Sardinia:

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 02:33 PM.

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    R1b-L23 initially dispersed as smiths & traders who travelled alone and married local women in each region, acquiring autosomal DNA of other groups. In most regions it was initially a peaceful dispersal.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 03:41 PM.

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    This theory was discussed way before your time and Italian, Iberian and French Copper Age Y-DNA has already refuted it. Those results are all I2a + G2a and lack steppe autosomal DNA. There is no doubt that the shift from EEF to modern Western Europeans had to start off as pretty heavy in EHG to get to today's numbers. There are no amount of maps that can be drawn to get around that. That another early branch R1b shows up thousands of years before the Copper/Bronze Age transition doesn't change probability in the least.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    Italian, Iberian and French Copper Age Y-DNA has already refuted it. Those results are all I2a + G2a and lack steppe autosomal DNA.
    If you sampled Powhatan DNA from 1620, there would be no European admixture and most would be Q. But would it disprove the existence of Jamestown? Mixing takes time. E.g. KO1 from Hungary was pure WHG.

    R1b expanded as lonely men (or small groups of men), who were smiths & traders, and married local women. So those R1b were becoming admixed by local women, but they were not admixing local I2a and G2a men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If you sampled Powhatan DNA from 1620, there would be no European admixture and most would be Q. But would it disprove the existence of Jamestown? Mixing takes time. E.g. KO1 from Hungary was pure WHG.

    R1b expanded as lonely men (or small groups of men), who were smiths & traders, and married local women. So those R1b were becoming admixed by local women, but they were not admixing local I2a and G2a men.
    No kidding. Too bad there were no EHG women around either, so your point is irrelevant.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    lack steppe autosomal DNA
    ATP3 (suspected R1b) did not have the same autosomal DNA as other ATP samples:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...anish-genomes/

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post466264

    Copper Age Iberia samples show evidence of two distinct origins of that population.

    ============

    If you have a better autosomal DNA analysis of ATP samples, feel free to post it.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ATP3 (suspected R1b) did not have the same autosomal DNA as other ATP samples:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...anish-genomes/

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post466264

    Copper Age Iberia samples show evidence of two distinct origins of that population.

    ============

    If you have a better autosomal DNA analysis of ATP samples, feel free to post it.
    ATP3 was low coverage, was he not? Even if he were a reliable sample, you need tons more EHG in a sample to get to modern Western Europeans.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    Not only ATP3 but also ATP20 differed in terms of autosomal DNA from other ATPs.

    Even if he were a reliable sample, you need tons more EHG in a sample to get to modern Western Europeans.
    Carleton S. Coon explained, that Beakers mixed with CWC in Germany.

    Later from Germany such admixed population back-migrated westward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Not only ATP3 but also ATP20 differed in terms of autosomal DNA from other ATPs.
    So they were heavily EHG?... like enough to breed with 100% EEF populations and turn them into modern Western Europeans?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    So they were heavily EHG?...
    They weren't and neither are modern Iberians. Iberians are mostly EEF despite being mostly R1b.

    ===============

    It was German Bell Beaker which acquired a lot of Steppe admixture, but not other Beaker groups.

    Carleton S. Coon wrote:

    "(...) In their Rhineland center, the more numerous Bell Beaker people had
    constant relationships with the inhabitants of Denmark, who were still
    burying in corridor tombs. Furthermore, the Corded people, one branch
    of whom invaded Jutland and introduced the single-grave type of burial,
    also migrated to the Rhine Valley, and here amalgamated themselves
    with the Bell Beaker people
    , who were already in process of mixing with
    their Borreby type neighbors. The result of this triple fusion was a great
    expansion, and a population overflow down the Rhine, in the direction
    of Britain.


    (8) THE BRONZE AGE IN BRITAIN

    The consideration of the Bell Beaker problem leads naturally to that of
    the Bronze Age in the British Isles, where the Beaker people found their
    most important and most lasting home. Coming down the Rhine and out
    into the North Sea, they invaded the whole eastern coast of England and
    of Scotland, and also the shore of the Channel.
    The Beaker invasion of Britain was not a simple affair. Not only did the
    newcomers land in many places, but they brought with them somewhat
    different traditions. Although most of them brought zoned beakers and
    battle axes, in consequence of their blending with the Corded people in
    the Rhinelands
    (...)"

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