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Thread: The Origin of Romanians (Vlachs)

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    I found 15 J2 haplotype samples in a 2010 study about South-East Romania.
    I'll convert them to haplogroups today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    I wasn't implying anything, just wanted to point that out. But yeah, J2b2 is over represented among Besarab as the study seems to suggest. It would be nice though to find out how those samples got there etc.
    Here is the breakdown of J2 from South-East Romania, according to the above mentioned study (Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania)

    J2 Subclade
    J2b2 M241
    J2b2 M241
    J2b2 M241
    J2a1 Z387
    J2a1 L26>Z500
    J2a1 L26>Z500
    J2a1 Z6046
    J2a1 Z6065
    J2a1 Z7671
    J2a1 Z7671
    J2a1 Z7700
    J2a1 Z7700
    J2a1 PF5191
    J2a1 M67>> S25258
    J2a1 M67>> S25258

    J2a1 - 80%
    J2b2 - 20%

    So, as mentioned before, the majority of J2 in Romania appears to come from the J2a1 branch.
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 06-05-2017 at 10:43 AM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Dorkymon For This Useful Post:

     J Man (08-12-2017)

  3. #162
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    104 samples gathered from Bucharest are on their way. They exclude minorities.

    Whole EDTA blood samples were collected from 104 unrelated Romanian males, randomly selected among the patients of a Bucharest hospital. All the males selected for the study had a birth place in Romania (different regions from all over the country) and Romanian surnames. Members of the Romanian minority populations living in Romania (Hungarians, Germans etc.) were excluded from the study.
    I'll attempt to run them through a haplogroup predictor in order to retrieve the subclade info.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dorkymon For This Useful Post:

     Illyro-Vlach (06-06-2017), J Man (06-06-2017), J1 DYS388=13 (06-05-2017)

  5. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Some figures for Romanians:

    K6000 BC

    Romanian
    "Anatolia_Neolithic" 54.15
    "Eastern_HG" 18
    "Satsurblia" 14.05
    "Loschbour" 3.9
    "Hungary_HG" 3.45
    "Iran_Neolithic" 2.6
    "Ulchi" 2.6
    "Dai" 1.25

    Explanation: At a base level, Romanians are mostly Anatolian Farmer, but with ~ 8% extra WHG, 14% 'CHG', 18% 'EHG'

    K4000BC
    Romanian
    "LBK_EN" 37.75
    "Armenia_Chalcolithic" 34.05
    "Samara_Eneolithic" 9.3
    "Loschbour" 6.8
    "Satsurblia" 5
    "Ulchi" 3.45
    "Eastern_HG" 3.05
    "Hungary_HG" 0.35

    K3000 BC
    Romanian
    "Baalberge_MN" 40.3
    "Armenia_EBA" 27.75
    "Yamnaya_Samara" 18.3
    "AG3-MA1" 5.45
    "LBK_EN" 4.9
    "Ulchi" 2.8
    "Hungary_HG" 0.5
    ..


    Throwing in all samples (athos good enough for Davidski to have made a DStat column for):

    Romanian
    "Armenia_MLBA" 32.7
    "Baalberge_MN" 20.35
    "Sintashta" 15.9
    "LBK_EN" 10.1
    "Hungary_LBA" 8.45
    "Eastern_HG" 4.8
    "Esperstedt_MN" 3.75
    "Ulchi" 2.65
    "AG3-MA1" 0.85
    "Andamanese_Onge" 0
    etc...

    It's hard to say what it all means. But the Steppe component seems more or less consistent at 15%, perhaps mediated mostly via Sintashta.
    Original Anatolian farmer weighs on at 20-40%; and some still difficult to describe 'Armenian' component is present at 20%. The latter is perhaps masking something akin to a distinctive Balkan Bronze Age signature. A 'masking effect' is probably the case for "Baalberg' appearing : an EEF population with WHG admixture - which could have existed anywhere in central Europe).
    At this point, I don't know if these combinations are merely best approximations in terms of components or are actually picking the most likely ancestral population.

    Naturally, this will get more interesting interesting as we get Iron Age samples, so we can begin to examine which groups/ cultures moderns derive from, and which others also provided input.

    Feel free to ask for other Pops (eg neighbours) or combinations you want tested.
    Also posting my runs with Global 10.

    1) Ancients Europe + Asia wide + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
    "distance%=0.031 / distance=0.00031"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                                   
    Portugal_MN:LugarCanto41  17.65
    Slav_Czech:RISE568        17.20
    Unetice:I0047             12.40
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073      11.70
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0429      11.65
    Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534  9.25
    LBK_EN:I0054               8.05
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0562     3.60
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563     3.40
    Armenia_EBA:I1633          3.20
    Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32           1.25
    Satsurblia:SATP            0.35
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0070       0.30
    2) Ancients Europe + Asia wide
    "distance%=0.1058 / distance=0.001058"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                                      
    LBK_EN:I0054                 27.25
    Unetice:I0047                17.45
    Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge 12.55
    Unetice:I0115                10.90
    Hungary_BA:I1504              9.15
    Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32              7.50
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563        6.55
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9128        4.40
    Satsurblia:SATP               2.90
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0429          1.10
    Scythian_AldyBel:I0577        0.15
    Portugal_MN:LugarCanto41      0.05
    Unetice:I0803                 0.05
    3) Ancients Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia
    "distance%=0.1023 / distance=0.001023"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                                      
    LBK_EN:I0054                 22.45
    Unetice:I0047                18.60
    Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge 16.90
    Hungary_BA:I1504             14.85
    Unetice:I0115                 7.40
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563        6.50
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9128        6.25
    Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32              5.25
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073          1.80
    4) Ancients Europe + Asia wide (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
    "distance%=0.1311 / distance=0.001311"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                                      
    Unetice:I0047                32.75
    Hungary_BA:I1504             25.90
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0071         16.45
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563        7.55
    Unetice:I0115                 6.40
    Portugal_BA:TV32032extra      4.50
    England_IA:M1489              2.50
    Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge  2.40
    Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534     1.25
    Hungary_BA:I1502              0.30
    5) Ancients Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
    "distance%=0.1328 / distance=0.001328"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                                      
    Unetice:I0047                31.20
    Hungary_BA:I1504             30.00
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0071         16.55
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563        7.40
    Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0113     5.55
    Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534     4.30
    Unetice:I0115                 3.50
    Hungary_BA:I1502              1.15
    Scythian_AldyBel:I0577        0.35
    6) Ancients Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age) + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
    "distance%=0.058 / distance=0.00058"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                                   
    Unetice:I0047             33.30
    Slav_Czech:RISE568        21.55
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0070       8.10
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9128     8.00
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0562     6.10
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074       5.85
    Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0806  5.60
    Hungary_BA:I1502           5.00
    Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563     2.05
    Unetice:I0116              1.95
    Hungary_CA:I1497           1.50
    Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534  1.00
    7) Ancients (average) Europe + Asia wide (Bronze Age, Iron Age) + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
    "distance%=0.1676 / distance=0.001676"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                          
    Slav_Czech       29.05
    Hungary_BA       23.60
    Minoan_Lasithi   22.45
    Halberstadt_LBA   9.65
    Yamnaya_Samara    8.00
    Scythian_Pazyryk  7.25
    8) Ancients (average) Europe + Asia wide (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
    "distance%=0.2591 / distance=0.002591"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                          
    Hungary_BA       42.30
    England_IA       20.40
    Minoan_Lasithi   15.50
    Scythian_Pazyryk  7.60
    Halberstadt_LBA   6.30
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia  4.45
    Satsurblia        2.95
    Hungary_IA        0.50
    9) Ancients (average) Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age) + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
    "distance%=0.1676 / distance=0.001676"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                          
    Slav_Czech       28.95
    Hungary_BA       23.75
    Minoan_Lasithi   22.45
    Halberstadt_LBA   9.55
    Yamnaya_Samara    8.05
    Scythian_Pazyryk  7.25
    10) Ancients (average) Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
    "distance%=0.2661 / distance=0.002661"
    Code:
             Dorkymon
                          
    Hungary_BA       51.80
    Minoan_Lasithi   16.65
    Halberstadt_LBA  13.40
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia  7.90
    Scythian_Pazyryk  7.65
    Satsurblia        2.60

  6. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Here is the breakdown of J2 from South-East Romania, according to the above mentioned study (Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania)

    J2 Subclade
    J2b2 M241
    J2b2 M241
    J2b2 M241
    J2a1 Z387
    J2a1 L26>Z500
    J2a1 L26>Z500
    J2a1 Z6046
    J2a1 Z6065
    J2a1 Z7671
    J2a1 Z7671
    J2a1 Z7700
    J2a1 Z7700
    J2a1 PF5191
    J2a1 M67>> S25258
    J2a1 M67>> S25258

    J2a1 - 80%
    J2b2 - 20%

    So, as mentioned before, the majority of J2 in Romania appears to come from the J2a1 branch.
    Do the Aromanians/Aromuns have much Y-DNA J2a among them do you know?
    Y-DNA: J2a-Z2227

    mtDNA: U5b2c2

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