Page 4 of 128 FirstFirst ... 234561454104 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 1275

Thread: Early Medieval aDNA from Poland coming soon

  1. #31
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,699
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27
    mtDNA
    W6a

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    In places such as Wrocław (Lower Silesia), Polonized East Slavic origin of many of modern residents is evident.

    I have two samples from modern Wrocław, and I can see elevated frequencies of I2a and E1b1b1 haplogroups.

    On the other hand, frequency of R1a in modern Lower Silesia might be even lower than in pre-1945 samples.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 04:48 PM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (10-29-2016)

  3. #32
    Registered Users
    Posts
    513
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R-Y20359
    mtDNA
    H1c9a

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It doesn't seem so. Y-DNA data shows, that Silesian Germans were - genetically - mostly Germanized Slavs.

    This is a very similar story to how Scotland's Celts became Anglicized - check posts by Alan in this thread:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141112

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141131

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141602

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141860

    In both cases (Scotland and Silesia) there was some influx of settlers, but shifts of language were cultural.

    Today entire Scotland speaks English or its local dialects (Scots is a dialect of English). But DNA is Celtic.

    Silesia was Germanized in the same way as Scotland was Anglicized - mostly culturall, demographic impact was smaller.

    As Alan called it - "Scotland colonized itself culturally, it was an internal process". More or less the same took place in Silesia.

    The story was much different in case of Pagan Polabian Slavs, who were violently conquered by the HRE and large part of them perished during the Northern Crusades. In those regions (to the west of the Oder River) the process of Germanization was not peaceful at all.
    For example, the person who sits one branch below me on the y-DNA chart at FTDNA has a German surname.

  4. #33
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,699
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27
    mtDNA
    W6a

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    Surnames can be good in tracing "ethnicity" up to several generations back, but in many cases probably no more than this. In the Middle Ages, in most of Europe there were generally no surnames (at least not among peasants and lower classes). In most regions of Europe surnames frequently changed or became modified until the beginning of the 19th century.

    After that the habit of changing surnames also continued. Here an article (in Polish) about changing of surnames among Poles who emigrated to Ruhrgebiet in the 1800s-1900s: http://pl.polskawarmia.de/images/doc...=1276276284.32

    Examples of changing surnames by Poles in Ruhrgebiet: http://s11.postimg.org/sjguikygj/Sur...manization.png

    In the USA, many immigrants - for example of German origin - also changed their surnames to sound more English.

    In some cases, when a surname was modified but its "core" wasn't changed, it is possible to establish what was the original surname like (before "Anglicization", "Germanization" or other "-zation"), but sometimes they were changing surnames totally.

    Oldest surnames in Medieval Europe were used in Venice during the 9th century. From there, the law of name bearing was adopted in France and Catalonia in the 11th, and in England, and Western and Southern Germany in the 12th Century. In the North and East of Germany, however, the custom of using surnames was practised no earlier than the 15th Century and, in some rural regions, surnames became fashionable only in the 18th century, nearly 900 years after their first appearance in Europe. Check also this thread:

    http://historum.com/european-history...-surnames.html

    In Britain (not sure about elsewhere), surnames emerged around the cusp of the high and late middle ages. It's quite hard to tell what's a surname and what's an occupational or territorial name, or if there's even much of a difference, so they may go back further or arise slightly later, depending on the region and whether it's an urban/rural economy. As for tracing family history, that's almost separate from surnames. It depends more on completeness of parish church and court records. You can generally follow a surname to the 1700s, a lineage to the 1600s, a fragmentary lineage to the 1500s, and names and places to just beyond if you really work at it. My own family line can be traced continuously to the late 1500s, then gets patchier and patchier until it meets Alexander de Tysoe in 1286.
    Depends on the country/culture. Norway was still mostly using patronymic names into the mid 19th century (ie, Lars Gundersen was the son of Gunder Hansen, who was the son of Hans Thorsen, etc) - several of my Norwegian ancestors didn't have consistent family names until immigrating to the US in the 1840s, and then started using the name of their farm back in Norway as their surname. But as mentioned, in other places in Europe, surnames came into use much, much earlier.
    Depends on the country. for example in Hungary having fixed surnames started among the aristorcracy (around 13th century?) in the middle ages and it spread down to the peasantry (majority of the population) with the development of tax administration, i would say 16th-17th century when most of the still today used Hungarian surnames were consolidated (...) it depends on country and culture. The Jews for example only adopted family names in the late 18th century, most of the Serbs even later, to the early 19th century, until then both used patronymics similarily to her Norwegian example. I don't know how far can generally orthodox christians trace back family tree, when did their church record keeping start there. Or Turks are a famous case where modern fixed family names were only adopted in the 20th century.
    Surnames can still be quite fluid in the 14th century in the UK with a man being referred to by both his father's name, ie a patronymic surname such as Adams or Adamson and his occupation, Walker. In instances where they crossed from one manor to another, they might be referred to by a locational name, eg. Lindley.

    In Germany I cam across an interesting example with the christening (sometime before 1300) of a 'Jacob Muffel von und zu Eschenau' whose father is given as 'Otto Der Junge Muffel', ie Otto, the young Muffel. Presumably, Muffel senior was still alive. Everyone in this particular village of Eschenau will have known who was meant by the terms younger and senior but when a third Muffel, ie Jacob appears, he is distinguished by the term Eschenau. Perhaps Otto and his father weren't from there or maybe it was just another term to differentiate.. Naming in this way can give rise to a new surname, Eschenau, whereas he really was a Muffel.

    You see this in other entries such as Anna von Eschenau, no hint of another surname. Anna is christened about 1432 in Nueremberg. The LDS entries give her surname as Muffel though when she gets married in 1452. Her father is given as Nicolai Muffel. It shows how the surname and the place name can be used interchangeably.
    Regarding Jewish surnames - check these sources:

    UNIVERSAL DECREE:
    demanding that, beginning with January 1st 1788,
    each Jew should have a constant surname:

    Joseph II Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor


    http://www.shoreshim.org/en/infoEmperorJoseph.asp

    http://jewishcurrents.org/november-1...ly-names-12794

    IMPERIAL DECREE OF 20 JULY, 1808, CONCERNING JEWS WITH NO FIXED FIRST OR FAMILY NAMES:
    (ARTICLE BY NAPOLEON I )


    http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_r..._20july_08.asp

    The Emancipation of Jews 1808: https://www.marxists.org/history/fra...ixed-names.htm

    History, Adoption, and Regulation of Jewish Surnames in the Russian Empire:

    http://www.surnamedna.com/?articles=...russian-empire
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 05:29 PM.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     leonardo (03-09-2016)

  6. #34
    Registered Users
    Posts
    98
    Sex
    Location
    Sharon plain
    Ethnicity
    Moabite
    Nationality
    Moabite
    Y-DNA
    J2a-M92
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    BTW - below is the reconstruction of an Early Bronze Age man from Poland, discussed previously in this thread:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-4-000YBP-Pole

    That just makes total sense
    I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad, king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt. Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions.
    Avatar: Copper age figurine from the Negev, Israel.

  7. #35
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,699
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27
    mtDNA
    W6a

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Reznov View Post
    That just makes total sense
    Also similar to John Paul II ???

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (10-29-2016)

  9. #36
    Registered Users
    Posts
    98
    Sex
    Location
    Sharon plain
    Ethnicity
    Moabite
    Nationality
    Moabite
    Y-DNA
    J2a-M92
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Also similar to John Paul II ???
    Woah, did'nt see that at first
    I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad, king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt. Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions.
    Avatar: Copper age figurine from the Negev, Israel.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Viktor Reznov For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (10-29-2016)

  11. #37
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,699
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27
    mtDNA
    W6a

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    I just hope the autumn release will include some Iron Age samples as well...
    It will (and Y-DNA will be there too).

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Brent.B (03-12-2016), Power77 (10-29-2016)

  13. #38
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,188
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA
    R1a-L1280
    mtDNA
    H2a2(b1)

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm waiting for Michał's next post to see why he thinks (if he really thinks so) that ~70% for Wielkopolska is wrong.
    Yes, I am very strongly convinced that this number is wrong.
    Firstly, let me note that there is absolutely no correlation between the SNP data provided by the authors and the STR-based haplogroup prediction for particular haplotypes (as performed by myself; I used the Whit Athey's predictor in all those cases when such prediction was beyond my competence). Secondly, the STR results for DYS437 are apparently wrong for a large group of 31 samples (ID125-ID155), and since this was probably an error made when constructing the table, we cannot be sure that the remaining STR data are correct. However, when ignoring those DYS437 results, the frequencies for predicted haplogroups are as follows:

    R1a - 109/201 (54.2%)
    including L260 - 41/201 (20.4%)
    R1b - 39/201 (19.4%)
    I1 - 21/201 (10.4%)
    I2 - 20/201 (10.0%)
    E1b - 3/201 (1.5%)
    G2a - 2/201 (1%)
    J1 - 2/201 (1%)
    N - 2/201 (1%)
    Q - 1/201 (0.5%)
    L - 1/201 (0.5%)
    T - 1/201 (0.5%)

    As you can see, the overall frequency of R1a is more or less what one would expect for the entire country. However, the frequencies of L260, R1b, I1 and I2 seem to be a bit higher than the average values for the entire country (though I doubt such differences are statistically significant when using samples of this size).

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     palamede (03-10-2016), Silesius (05-02-2017), Tįltos (03-09-2016), Tomenable (03-09-2016), Volat (03-18-2016)

  15. #39
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,188
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA
    R1a-L1280
    mtDNA
    H2a2(b1)

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The region discussed in this thread (Wielkopolska / Greater Poland) remained relatively unaffected by these movements.
    You mean there was no significant German minority in Greater Poland before WW2 (not to mention before WW1)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You will be surprised.

    In my German Silesia + East Brandenburg sample, M458 numbers 15 out of 43 - so 35% of the total.
    Well, it all depends on how you collect the samples and whether the samples are large enough to observe statistically significant differences. For example, I can assure you that you will get quite different M458 frequencies when searching for Lower Silesians in German and Polish FTDNA projects. I have once compared different projects for East Prussia, and the differences for such haplogroups like R1a, R1b and I1 were hard to be overlooked. Also, see the FTDNA project "Germany Posen-W.Prus" where the ratio of R1a to R1b samples from Greater Poland (as seen on their map) is 1 to 4.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Saetro (03-10-2016), Volat (03-18-2016)

  17. #40
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,188
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA
    R1a-L1280
    mtDNA
    H2a2(b1)

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Any idea of how the numbers break down for M458 (L1029 vs. L260) within Wielkepolska?
    Unfortunately, while it was quite easy to predict L260 based on those STRs, I was unable to securely recognize L1029, and I doubt this would be possible when using such a limited set of STR markers.
    Last edited by Michał; 03-09-2016 at 08:32 PM.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     leonardo (03-09-2016), Tomenable (03-09-2016)

Page 4 of 128 FirstFirst ... 234561454104 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Natufian aDNA Coming Soon
    By ZephyrousMandaru in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 110
    Last Post: 06-18-2016, 01:44 PM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-22-2015, 07:58 PM
  3. Replies: 124
    Last Post: 04-07-2015, 09:22 PM
  4. "Lake Tsunami" Destroyed Early Medieval Geneva
    By History-of-Things in forum Natural Sciences
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-21-2012, 04:15 AM
  5. Medieval Italy
    By J Man in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-23-2012, 02:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •