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Thread: Early Medieval aDNA from Poland coming soon

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In the original study, they had such results (n=201):

    R1a = 119 (59,2%)
    K-M9 = 38 (18,9%)
    R1b = 30 (14,9%)
    IJ = 13 (6,5%)
    N/A = 1 (0,5%)

    After predicting K-M9 & N/A with Nevgen (n=201):

    R1a = 119 + 24 = 143 (71,1%)
    R1b = 30 + 7 = 37 (18,4%)
    IJ = 13 + 6 = 19 (9,5%)
    N1c = 0 + 2 = 2 (1%)

    Over 70 percent of R1a, more than in Sorbs and Kashubians!
    The STR and SNP data from that paper are a total mess. I have once analyzed those haplotypes and found out the data are simply not reliable. I don't have my notes with me, but I will explain it in more detail as soon as I get a chance.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    So which area of Poland is M458 prevalent in ? (Given Artmar has informed us it is low in Kashubia)
    It depends on whether you ask about modern Poland (where the population was thoroughly "homogenized" during the past century) or about the more distant past (when the regional differentiation was certainly much more apparent). In the latter case, it seems that with the exception of the Northern part of today's Poland (Pomerania and Mazury/Prussia), the frequency of M458 was very high since the Early Slavic times (and more or less uniform across the country, ie. probably 25-35%), although we don't have enough data for Silesia (where the M458 level could have dropped down following the quite intensive German colonization). Also, I suspect that the frequency of M458 in Poland is significantly higher today than it was 100-200 years ago (when both the Ashkenazi Jews and ethnic Germans constituted a substantial part of the entire population).

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał
    where the population was thoroughly "homogenized" during the past century
    The region discussed in this thread (Wielkopolska / Greater Poland) remained relatively unaffected by these movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał
    when both the Ashkenazi Jews and ethnic Germans constituted a substantial part of the entire population
    I have 82 samples of most distant ancestors from East Prussia here:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post103666

    I also have smaller samples for Lower Silesia, Eastern Brandenburg and Pomerania - collected from FTDNA.

    My samples for these regions are smaller East Prussian, because I have not checked them as thoroughly.

    Later I will probably expanded by samples for these regions by adding new kits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał
    Also, I suspect that the frequency of M458 in Poland is significantly higher today than it was 100-200 years ago
    You will be surprised.

    In my German Silesia + East Brandenburg sample, M458 numbers 15 out of 43 - so 35% of the total.

    Here are the 15 samples of M458 (out of the total of 43 samples) in question:

    Johann Godfried Warkus born 1801 Breslau R-M458, R-L260
    Daniel Lehmann born 1785 Alt Lietzegoericke R-M458
    George Zeretzke born 1734 Neutomischel R-M458, CTS11962+
    Johann Christoph Schulze born Kałki (near Triebel) R-M458, R-L260
    Matheus Vogt born 1841 Gruenberg, R-M458, R-L260
    Paul George Schober born 1863 Altwasser R-M458, R-CTS11962
    Gottfried Runge born 1720 Rawitsch R-M458, R-CTS11962
    Schwabe born 1836 Militsch R-M458, R-L1029
    Valentine Kruszka born 1843 Silberberg R-M458, R-L260
    Stephan Pach born 1857 Laskowitz R-M458, R-L260, P Type
    Johann Hannak born 1776 Falkenberg R-M458, R-L260
    Gregor Freyer born 1753 Karmonke R-M458
    Christian Friedrich Türk born 1690 Landsberg an der Warthe R-M458, R-L260
    Thomas Sakry born 1783 Comprachtschütz R-M458, L260+, P Type
    Matthias Schneider born 1830 Wilmesau R-M458, R-L260

    Another Silesian sample was posted in the link below by Armtar, and M458 (especially L260) is the majority of R1a:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post137035

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał
    The STR and SNP data from that paper are a total mess. I have once analyzed those haplotypes and found out the data are simply not reliable. I don't have my notes with me, but I will explain it in more detail as soon as I get a chance.
    Does it affect only the leve of subclades, or also have impact on haplogroups?

    In other words - do you think that R1a is in fact not over 70% in Wielkopolska?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 03:31 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It depends on whether you ask about modern Poland (where the population was thoroughly "homogenized" during the past century) or about the more distant past (when the regional differentiation was certainly much more apparent). In the latter case, it seems that with the exception of the Northern part of today's Poland (Pomerania and Mazury/Prussia), the frequency of M458 was very high since the Early Slavic times (and more or less uniform across the country, ie. probably 25-35%), although we don't have enough data for Silesia (where the M458 level could have dropped down following the quite intensive German colonization). Also, I suspect that the frequency of M458 in Poland is significantly higher today than it was 100-200 years ago (when both the Ashkenazi Jews and ethnic Germans constituted a substantial part of the entire population).
    Any idea of how the numbers break down for M458 (L1029 vs. L260) within Wielkepolska?

  8. #25
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    Any idea of how the numbers break down for M458 (L1029 vs. L260) within Wielkepolska?
    You would need FTDNA data to check this, because there are no major studies on this region in existence.

    Except for the one with 38 samples labeled K-M9 that I've just discussed. But it does not go into subclades.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 03:31 PM.

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The region discussed in this thread (Wielkopolska / Greater Poland) remained relatively unaffected by these movements.



    I have 82 samples of most distant ancestors from East Prussia here:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post103666

    I also have smaller samples for Lower Silesia, Eastern Brandenburg and Pomerania - collected from FTDNA.

    My samples for these regions are smaller East Prussian, because I have not checked them as thoroughly.

    Later I will probably expanded by samples for these regions by adding new kits.



    You will be surprised.

    In my German Silesia + East Brandenburg sample, M458 numbers 15 out of 43 - so 35% of the total.

    Here are the 15 samples of M458 (out of the total of 43 samples) in question:

    Johann Godfried Warkus born 1801 Breslau R-M458, R-L260
    Daniel Lehmann born 1785 Alt Lietzegoericke R-M458
    George Zeretzke born 1734 Neutomischel R-M458, CTS11962+
    Johann Christoph Schulze born Kałki (near Triebel) R-M458, R-L260
    Matheus Vogt born 1841 Gruenberg, R-M458, R-L260
    Paul George Schober born 1863 Altwasser R-M458, R-CTS11962
    Gottfried Runge born 1720 Rawitsch R-M458, R-CTS11962
    Schwabe born 1836 Militsch R-M458, R-L1029
    Valentine Kruszka born 1843 Silberberg R-M458, R-L260
    Stephan Pach born 1857 Laskowitz R-M458, R-L260, P Type
    Johann Hannak born 1776 Falkenberg R-M458, R-L260
    Gregor Freyer born 1753 Karmonke R-M458
    Christian Friedrich Türk born 1690 Landsberg an der Warthe R-M458, R-L260
    Thomas Sakry born 1783 Comprachtschütz R-M458, L260+, P Type
    Matthias Schneider born 1830 Wilmesau R-M458, R-L260

    Another Silesian sample was posted in the link below by Armtar, and M458 (especially L260) is the majority of R1a:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post137035



    Does it affect only the leve of subclades, or also have impact on haplogroups?

    In other words - do you think that R1a is in fact not over 70% in Wielkopolska?
    Regarding M458 within Silesia, I would imagine most of it is L260, as this seems to be the most prevalent in the southern part of Poland, perhaps as a direct result of the Prague Culture. As for L 1029, there is an ancestor of a man who has tested and is one "branch" below me who farthest ancestor was from Wroclaw. Another man's ancestry on the same (newly determined branch) as me has ancestry from Balga in what was once East Prussia. Whether these ancestral locations are ancient is unknown, but both go back until the early 19th century and demonstrate some of the presence of L1029 within what has been considered the general borders of Poland.

  11. #27
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    When it comes to Kashubians, I have just 3 x N1c in a sample of 268 (from two sources) - so only 1% frequency.

    By contrast, in my East Prussian sample of 82 from FTDNA projects (see the link above), I have 20 x N1c (ca. 24%).

    That N1c was both from Old Prussians and new Lithuanian settlers who settled East Prussia from the 1400s onwards.

    Regarding M458 within Silesia, I would imagine most of it is L260
    That's what Artmar's sample shows. And in my sample M458 is 35% of all people (not just of all R1a, but of all hgs).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 03:46 PM.

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  13. #28
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    Anyway, if data from this Wielkopolska study is correct, then we have the following frequencies of R1a:

    Kashubians - 63,4% (170 out of 268) ----> mostly Z280
    Wielkopolans - 71,1% (143 out of 201) ----> roughly equal Z280/M458
    Lusatian Sorbs - 65,0% (80 out of 123) ----> mostly M458

    I'm waiting for Michał's next post to see why he thinks (if he really thinks so) that ~70% for Wielkopolska is wrong.

    So far it seems that frequency of R1a in Slavic areas actually goes down as you move from west to east.

    And the proportions of M458/Z280 within R1a change from north to south, with central regions like Wielkopolska having roughly equal proportions of the two major subclades. On the other hand - there are no major changes in overall R1a frequency from north to south.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 03:56 PM.

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  15. #29
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    perhaps as a direct result of the Prague Culture.
    It is obvious that Slavic migrations involved both Z280 and M458 and also (especially in case of South and East Slavs) I2a.

    Just like it is obvious, that Celtic migrations involved not only L21, not just U152, not only various DF's - but all of P312.

    Why some clades became dominant in some groups (for example L21 in Insular Celts, but not in Continental Celts) is another issue.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 04:06 PM.

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  17. #30
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    Silesia (where the M458 level could have dropped down following the quite intensive German colonization).
    It doesn't seem so. Y-DNA data shows, that Silesian Germans were - genetically - mostly Germanized Slavs.

    This is a very similar story to how Scotland's Celts became Anglicized - check posts by Alan in this thread:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141112

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141131

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141602

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post141860

    In both cases (Scotland and Silesia) there was some influx of settlers, but shifts of language were cultural.

    Today entire Scotland speaks English or its local dialects (Scots is a dialect of English). But DNA is Celtic.

    Silesia was Germanized in the same way as Scotland was Anglicized - mostly culturall, demographic impact was smaller.

    As Alan called it - "Scotland colonized itself culturally, it was an internal process". More or less the same took place in Silesia.

    The story was much different in case of Pagan Polabian Slavs, who were violently conquered by the HRE and large part of them perished during the Northern Crusades. In those regions (to the west of the Oder River) the process of Germanization was not peaceful at all.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 04:34 PM.

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