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Thread: Early Medieval aDNA from Poland coming soon

  1. #11
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    this is massive. looking forward to the results.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ Pre-Migration Period DNA will probably follow, because it seems to be part of the same research project as Early Medieval DNA:

    "Dynasty and population of the Piast state in view of integrated historical, anthropological and genomic studies":

    [/IMG]
    Around 1830 the province of Posen/Poznan was an amalgam of ancient Slavs and minority Wends / Sorbs together with ethnic Germans who are said to have been invited in at various times from around 1200 to fairly recently.
    As this population appears to be before German immigration, it will be interesting to see what the background was like. Hope they include some ethnic Wends / Sorbs also, but with only 50 samples of common folk, this is unlikely.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro
    Around 1830 the province of Posen/Poznan was an amalgam of ancient Slavs and minority Wends / Sorbs together with ethnic Germans
    In 1819 the population was 77,0% Polish; 17,5% German and 5,5% Jewish - according to Georg Hassel's 1823 book:

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=31D...page&q&f=false

    Quote from the book (link above): "Nationalverschiedenheit 1819: Polen - 680,100; Deutsche - 155,000; Juden - 48,700."



    However, Germans and Poles were defined by native language in those figures (both from 1819 and other years). In reality IMO most of those German-speakers were of local Polish Slavic origin. So genetic differences between Polish-speakers and German-speakers were rather not significant (at least when it comes to those Germans living there for many generations; not recent immigrants - who could indeed be different).

    But those 48,700 Jews were most certainly genetically different from the rest, because Ashkenazi genetics is different as we know.

    who are said to have been invited in at various times from around 1200 to fairly recently.
    In 1772-1795 Kingdom of Prussia forcibly annexed Greater Poland (which later was renamed Provinz Posen) and started bringing in German settlers there (at first during the rules of Frederick the Great the majority of them settled in the Netze River Valley, as well as in major cities). There were some Germans already before 1772 (those were invited by Polish rulers), but after the "Partitions" the number was increasing. Apart from immigration, there were policies of Germanization aimed at turning local Poles into Germans (by erasing Polish language and culture).

    For example one of Angela Merkel's grandfathers was Ludwik Kaźmierczak from Poznań/Posen, who was ethnically Polish and born into a Catholic family. He changed his identity over time, emigrated to Berlin, converted to Lutheranism, and also changed his surname to Kasner:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Kasner

    Obviously he did not change his genetics, though. Generally Angela Merkel is 50% Polish-Kashubian (two Slavic grandparents).

    The treatment of Poles by the Prussians/Germans in Prov. Posen was similar to the treatment of Irish by the English in Ireland.

    an amalgam of ancient Slavs and minority Wends / Sorbs
    Wends / Sorbs are Slavs too. And genetics of Sorbs is quite well known.

    Wends were not any specific group, but a generic name for all West Slavs (and also Slovenes used to be called Wends/Winds).

    But it was most often applied to Polabian Slavs, who are extinct today (except for Sorbs, if you count them as a sub-group of Polabians, and not as another group - which they technically are, because Sorbian languages are another subdivision of West Slavic languages).

    The last of Polabian Wends who preserved their language, were the Drevani:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani

    Polabian language is extinct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_language

    and minority Wends / Sorbs
    Sorbs / Wends (if you consider only Elbe Slavs as Wends) never lived as far east as the area of Provinz Posen.

    The easternmost place where those groups ever lived, was the village of Chwalim, but they were immigrants there:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chwalim

    And it is not certain if inhabitants of Chwalim were of Sorbian origin, or of Slavic Lower Silesian origin. But if any Sorbs really lived in Chwalim, they were not natives to the land, but descendants of immigrants from Lusatia who came there after the Thirty Years' War.

    What is certain, is that inhabitants of Chwalim were Slavic-speaking, Protestant, and called themselves "Wends".

    In two neighbouring villages located near Chwalim - Stare Kramsko and Nowe Kramsko - the population called themselves "Poles":

    Stare Kramsko was mixed Catholic-Protestant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stare_Kramsko

    Nowe Kramsko was a fully Catholic village: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowe_Kramsko

    Those three villages were located at the very border between Provinz Posen and Brandenburg (also ethnic border at that time).
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    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-27-2016 at 02:16 AM.

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  7. #14
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    As this population appears to be before German immigration, it will be interesting to see what the background was like.
    Yes, the 10th - 11th centuries was long before any German immigration, and long before any Jewish immigration as well.

    At that time the Germans were still busy conquering Slavic lands between the Elbe and the Oder (campaigns of Henry the Fowler and Otto the Great from 928 to 963, later the Great Slav Rising in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in 983, which restored Slavic control over most of the area lost in 928-963 - and also Slavs captured Hamburg during that uprising; but a dozen or so years later Saxon forces manged to take it back).

    There is a good book about those events: David S. Bachrach, "Warfare in Tenth-Century Germany", Boydell Press 2012:

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7722/j.ctt1x7355

    The first major Polish-German encounter in history was probably in year 972 - the battle of Cedynia, at the Oder River.

    The Germans established their border at the Oder River (for the 2nd time after 983) only during the late 12th-early 13th centuries:

    (the video below is accurate, but starts in 962; so it shows the situation after the campaigns of 928-963 mentioned above):

    Of course this map doesn't show territories of the Teutonic Order (and later Prussia), because those weren't parts of the HRE - the Teutonic Order started to forge their realm in Prussia in 1228, and - with help of crusaders from all of Europe - conquered Baltic Prussians by 1283:



    Migrations of German settlers to lands to the east of the present-day Polish-German border started in the 1200s and continued in next centuries (largest-scale immigration was in the 1300s; because after the Black Death Germany could no longer support so many settlers).

    =======================================

    BTW, I have some Low German ancestors who came to the PLC in the 16th-17th centuries, but in my maternal grandfather's line.

    On the other hand, in my paternal grandfather's line I'm not aware of any German ancestry, and the surname is of Polish origin.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-27-2016 at 02:31 AM.

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    Y-STR based Nevgen predictions of Polish Y-DNA hgs/SNPs labeled as K-M9

    Here is a study about modern Y-DNA in the same region from which Early Medieval samples will be published:

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

    Unfortunately, in this study (n=201), as many as 19% of all samples - 38 - were labeled as K-M9 haplogroup.

    So far I have Nevgen-predicted 18 out of these 38. Here are the most likely results:

    ID01 - N1c
    ID33 - I2a1b2-L621
    ID36 - I2a1b2-L621
    ID43 - I2a1b2-L621
    ID45 - I2a1b2-L621
    ID51 - I1a3a2-BY351
    ID60 - R1a1a1b2a-Z94
    ID63 - R1a1a1b1a3a-L448
    ID66 - R1a1a1b1a1-M458
    ID67 - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280
    ID74a - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280
    ID74b - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280
    ID81 - R1a1a1b1a1-M458
    ID83 - R1a1a1b1a-YP694
    ID87 - R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1-L47
    ID88 - R1b1a1a2a1a2e-DF19
    ID89 - R1a1a1b1a1-M458
    ID98 - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280

    Twenty more K-M9 samples to go:

    http://www.nevgen.org

    ID106
    ID111
    ID112
    ID113
    ID129
    ID143
    ID144
    ID150
    ID151
    ID157
    ID158
    ID173
    ID179
    ID180
    ID181
    ID184
    ID185
    ID186
    ID187
    ID188

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  11. #16
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    So which area of Poland is M458 prevalent in ? (Given Artmar has informed us it is low in Kashubia)

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    The remaining predictions are:

    ID106 - R1b-L21
    ID111 - R1b-PF7558
    ID112 - R1a-Z92
    ID113 - R1a-Z280
    ID129 - R1a-M458
    ID143 - R1a-YP694
    ID144 - R1b-P312
    ID150 - R1a-Y2613
    ID151 - R1a-YP343
    ID157 - R1a-YP4141
    ID158 - I2a1b3-L621
    ID173 - R1a-Y35
    ID179 - R1b-DF99
    ID180 - R1a-L1280
    ID181 - R1a-L1280
    ID184 - R1b-L47
    ID185 - R1a-Z94 (probability of Z94 is 99,78% here)
    ID186 - N1c
    ID187 - R1a-Z284
    ID188 - R1a-CTS1211

    And one sample - ID109 - was classified as "unknown haplogroup" in the original study. Nevgen predicts it as:

    ID109 - R1a-M458
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-09-2016 at 10:21 AM.

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  14. #18
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    In the original study, they had such results (n=201):

    R1a = 119 (59,2%)
    K-M9 = 38 (18,9%)
    R1b = 30 (14,9%)
    IJ = 13 (6,5%)
    N/A = 1 (0,5%)

    After predicting K-M9 & N/A with Nevgen (n=201):

    R1a = 119 + 24 = 143 (71,1%)
    R1b = 30 + 7 = 37 (18,4%)
    IJ = 13 + 6 = 19 (9,5%)
    N1c = 0 + 2 = 2 (1%)

    Over 70 percent of R1a, more than in Sorbs and Kashubians!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    So which area of Poland is M458 prevalent in ? (Given Artmar has informed us it is low in Kashubia)
    Artmar's post has to be taken in context, as things are relative. Considering the prevalence of R1a in Poland, especially other branches, M458 is relatively low in Kashubia (approximately 20%). In absolute number, this is, in my opinion, rather significant. As Michał has stated, the M458 in Kashubia is primarily L1029. While this image is rather dated, it gives a general idea of things:
    300px-R-M458_frequency_distribution.PNG
    To my understanding, Poznan has a rather high distribution of M458, although I do not know to what degree L1029 and L260 are distributed.

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  18. #20
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    Tomenable >>

    A predictor that claims to distinguish branches of P312 sounds like fun so I threw a few DF49s at it too see how it coped

    http://www.nevgen.org

    ZZ19 (DF27) > 70%
    Z258 (U152) > 60%
    DF21 (L21) > 70%
    ZZ10 (L21) > 55%
    ZZ10 (L21) > 60%
    L176 (DF27) > 75%

    All of these were at 67 loci and to be fair I'm quite impressed but clearly it's not exactly reliable.

    The first one was me and I decided to see what it had to say at 111 loci

    1 R1b L21>DF13>ZZ10 99.88%
    2 R1b L21>DF13>Z39589>DF49 0.1%

    I still think getting down to DF13 is pretty good though.

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