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Thread: Z1a1a - Southwestern-Norwegian-cluster

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Ymyakhtakh is generally associated with prehistoric cultures of Taymyr, but that doesn't mean its western end in Kola and North Scandinavia was the source of Yukaghiric. Read that paper I linked earlier in this thread, it makes a pretty convincing argument that the loanwords could be proto-Samoyedic (and thus postdate the Uralic expansion out of Volga region 4k years ago). There is no consensus - or even majority opinion - that it has to be Para-Uralic or Pre-Proto-Uralic, and all linguists put the contact in Southern Siberia - what is argued is the timeframe and the stage of the languages. The earliest known Uralics in Kola Peninsula were Saami who got there during the Iron Age, and the Yukaghir loans certainly aren't Saamic or West Uralic more broadly.

    Yukaghirs may have been pushed out of Taymyr but Kola Peninsula as the home of Proto-Yukaghiric which got Uralic loans there and then fled to Taymyr and further doesn't sound very parsimonious.
    Shaikorth, i don't recall myself saying that Kola is the source of Yukaghiric...I only said that there is a possibility that Kola peninsula was part of the Uralic-Yukaghir contact zone. I think you missed my point.

    Proto-Samoyedic is a very young branch of the Uralic language family, spoken near the Sayan mountains around 2000 years ago while Yukaghiric speakers were living further up North.
    There probably were contacts between Proto-Samoyedic and Yukaghiric but there's a more ancient layer of early East uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric that probably derive from when Garbino Bor culture influenced the arctic cultures of the northern urals.

    All of this leads to me thinking that the Uralic-Yukaghir contacts could have occured on pretty much all of the arctic seaboard stretching from Kola to Arctic Urals.

  2. #72
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    I had a closer look at Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov and Yukaghir mtDNA on the basis of HVR1 region data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427195/ and http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1003296)

    In Bolshoy there is 6xC (C4b) 223 298 327
    Yukaghirs harbor C4b (C2) basic haplotype 223 298 327 519: Indigirka 26/82, Kolyma 2/18, Chuvantsi 6/32
    In addition, Yukaghirs harbor C4b1, C4b2, C4b3a and C4b7

    In Bolshoy, there is 2xC5 148 223 311 388 298 327 519
    Yukaghirs have 5 different C5 haplotypes (C5a, C5d), but an exact HVR1 match is only with a Buryat (C5b1a1) while Nganasans harbor a close haplotype without 311 (C5b1a1)

    In Bolshoy, there is 2xZ1a 129 185 223 224 260 298 and 1xZ1a with 155
    Yukaghirs harbor Z1a 129 185 223 224 260 298: Indigirka 1/82, Kolyma 1/18, Chuvantsi 2/32

    In Bolshoy, there is 3xD 223 362
    Yukaghirs harbor D4j5 223 319 362: Kolyma 1/18
    Also Nganasans harbour a close haplotype D4j4 223 362 519
    A Bargut harbours the haplotype D4j 223 362 which could be the same as Bolshoy haplotype

    To sum up, all Siberian haplotypes detected in Bolshoy are found in Yukaghirs on C4b, C5, Z1a/Z1a1 and D4j level on the basis of HVR1 data, and with C4b and Z1a there is an exact HVR1 match. I am not saying that this is conclusive evidence of a linguistic relationship between Yukaghirs and Bolshoy people, but considering the geographical distance (4287.45 km) and temporal distance (3500 years), I would say that this is not a coincidence. One could even claim that Central Siberian Yukaghir related groups are one of the main sources of North Siberian in Uralics.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 09-05-2016 at 05:34 AM.

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  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I had a closer look at Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov and Yukaghir mtDNA on the basis of HVR1 region data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427195/ and http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1003296)

    In Bolshoy there is 6xC (C4b) 223 298 327
    Yukaghirs harbor C4b (C2) basic haplotype 223 298 327 519: Indigirka 26/82, Kolyma 2/18, Chuvantsi 6/32
    In addition, Yukaghirs harbor C4b1, C4b2, C4b3a and C4b7

    In Bolshoy, there is 2xC5 148 223 311 388 298 327 519
    Yukaghirs have 5 different C5 haplotypes (C5a, C5d), but an exact HVR1 match is only with a Buryat (C5b1a1) while Nganasans harbor a close haplotype without 311 (C5b1a1)

    In Bolshoy, there is 2xZ1a 129 185 223 224 260 298 and 1xZ1a with 155
    Yukaghirs harbor Z1a 129 185 223 224 260 298: Indigirka 1/82, Kolyma 1/18, Chuvantsi 2/32

    In Bolshoy, there is 3xD 223 362
    Yukaghirs harbor D4j5 223 319 362: Kolyma 1/18
    Also Nganasans harbour a close haplotype D4j4 223 362 519

    To sum up, all Siberian haplotypes detected in Bolshoy are found in Yukaghirs on C4b, C5, Z1a/Z1a1 and D4j level on the basis of HVR1 data, and with C4b and Z1a there is an exact HVR1 match. I am not saying that this is conclusive evidence of a linguistic relationship between Yukaghirs and Bolshoy people, but considering the geographical distance (4287.45 km) and temporal distance (3500 years), I would say that this is not a coincidence. One could even claim that Central Siberian Yukaghir related groups are one of the main sources of North Siberian in Uralics.
    The resolution in BOO samples is too low to pinpoint their Z1a to Yukaghirs. Yeniseians have Z1a1a.

    Neither Yukaghirs or Yeniseians suffice as the source of siberian to Mordvins (even a partial one) as per Busby et al. 2015, you'll need something more southern that is simultaneusly not present in the Eastern Baltic region or Scandinavia. See table s5 and this.

    This also affects Broushaki et al TVD models. Subtable 3 in both Lazaridis and Busby merges.

  5. #74
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    Yukaghirs are today a very small population on the verge of extinction. According to Wikipedia, their total number is only 1,509! They will surely disappear as an ethnic entity soon. However, the Yukaghiric population was probably once much bigger, and several haplotypes that they carried have surely been lost or been assimilated by other groups, e.g. Evens and Yakuts. Probably also the autosomal profile they had in Central Siberia has been lost and, instead, they have gained Beringian autosomal ancestry.

    On the other hand, there was clearly quite a lot of Western Eurasian mtDNA in Bolshoy, so the Kola Peninsula population was in any case mixed Western Eurasian - Northeast Eurasian population.

    Why should there be only one Siberian source for all Uralic groups?
    Last edited by Kristiina; 09-04-2016 at 08:51 PM.

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  7. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Yukaghirs are today a very small population on the verge of extinction. According to Wikipedia, their total number is only 1,509! They will surely disappear as an ethnic entity soon. However, the Yukaghiric population was probably once much bigger, and several haplotypes that they carried have surely been lost or been assimilated by other groups, e.g. Evens and Yakuts. Probably also the autosomal profile they had in Central Siberia has been lost and, instead, they have gained Beringian autosomal ancestry.

    On the other hand, there was clearly quite a lot of Western Eurasian mtDNA in Bolshoy, so the Kola Peninsula population was in any case mixed Western Eurasian - Northeast Eurasian population.

    Why should there be only one Siberian source for all Uralic groups?
    Evenks and Yakuts don't have Z1a1a, and Kets certainly did not displace the Yukaghirs. Your last question would be better off without "only" and the answer depends on what the Proto-Uralic population was like genetically.

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  9. #76
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    Z1a1a seems to be only c. 2000 years old, so it is younger than the age of Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov burials. Z1a1 seems to be c. 7000 years old, and it includes Z1a1b of Evens, Yukaghirs and Nganasans. So, we have Z1a1 in Central Siberia c. 5000 BC from which an eastern and western branch develop.

    It is interesting that Z1a is c. 9000 years old, and its all three branches, Z1a1, Z1a2 and Z1a3, are found in Yukaghirs.

    The Baraba Steppe paper detected Z in western Siberia in Ust Tartas, Odinovo and Krotovo burials. The oldest Ust Tartas phase is dated 4000-3000 BC. There are six samples and four different haplotypes, and none of them seems to be Z1a as they lack 16129 and 16124. Instead, Z1(xZ1a) has been detected in a Turkic speaking Tofalar.

    Therefore, it looks like Bolshoy Z1a is not from Baraba Steppe area north of Kazakhstan but has a more northern origin. Moreover, western and central Siberia may have had more Z1 diversity than today as Ust Tartas and Krotovo haplotypes have not been detected in modern populations.

    Evens and Yakuts are only the most recent populations that have assimilated Yukaghirs. Nganasans have probably also assimilated a lot of Yukaghir haplotypes and autosomal DNA. Evenks also. Why not also Yeniseians. Men can marry women from other tribes without any violence or ethnic displacement.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 09-04-2016 at 10:32 PM.

  10. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    It makes me wonder if the lack of haplogroup - language correlation for haplogroups N is an "odd exception", or a valuable lesson against the possibly simplistic conclusions for other language families ....
    Not unusual except in its great geographical range and the fortunate survival of many minority languages in Siberia into the present, IMO.

    A couple of relevant abstracts from an upcoming conference (also for the significance of Z1a):

    Comparing population history inferred from genetic and linguistic data in Central Asia
    AUSTERLITZ Frédéric1, Philippe Mennecier1, Remco Bouckaert2, Franz Manni1, Phillip Endicott1, Russell Gray3, Quentin D. Atkinson3, Evelyne Heyer1.


    Genetic and linguistic contribute to the understanding of the biological and cultural history of human populations. We compared the diversity of Central Asian populations as it is mirrored by this kind of data. These human groups belong to two distinct linguistic families: Indo-Iranian and Turkic. Concerning the linguistic data, we used a modified Swadesh lists of concepts concerning basic vocabulary. Words were classified into cognates, i.e. homologous words related by common ancestry. For genetic polymorphism data, we used mitochondrial DNA sequences, Y-chromosome and autosomal microsatellites. To infer the genealogical tree of the populations the program starBeast has been used for both datasets. We compared the two trees obtained and found that the autosomal microsatellite tree had the best congruence with the linguistic tree. This may reflect the information gained by using many independent loci. Furthermore, the mitochondrial tree shows more congruence with the linguistic tree than the Y-chromosome tree, an interesting result in these populations known to be patrilineal. Finally, we find several populations from one linguistic group to genetically cluster with the other linguistic group, which might reflect specific linguistic replacements.

    Reassessing the influence of social organization on genomic diversity: the case of Austroasiatic populations of South-East Asia
    LY Goki, Raphaelle Chaix et al.


    We investigated the influence of these three components of social organization on uniparental and autosomal diversity in 12 ethnic groups from South-East Asia which exhibit different social organizations. We estimated quantitative variables associated with social organization from ethno-demographic data collected in 535 households and calculated genetic estimators from genomic data of more than 400 individuals for uniparental data and 800 individuals for autosomal data. As expected, mitochondrial diversity was lower in matrilineal and matrilocal populations than in cognatic populations or in patrilineal and patrilocal populations and was correlated with female migration rates estimated from ethno-demographic data. Unexpectedly, Y chromosome diversity was not different across social organizations. Quantified male migration rates were also similar across social organizations which allow us to understand the lack of difference of Y chromosome diversity. In addition, we detected an influence of descent group structure on uniparental genetic diversity. Consanguinity levels estimated on autosomal data were higher in matrilineal and matrilocal populations than in cognatic populations or patrilineal and patrilocal populations. These higher levels were associated with a higher proportion of within village alliances in matrilineal and matrilocal populations.

  11. #78
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    A relative to me in the USA tested her mtDNA and got back her results as Z1a. I am a Norwegian myself, and the closest this Z1a maternal line is to me, is my 4th grandmother. This line trace back all the way to my 7th grandmother. Susanna Johansdatter https://www.geni.com/people/Susanna-...00007441996031 She was born 1715 in the Tornevalley. This valley follows where the border between Finland and Sweden are today. She has over 5000 decendants according to geni, and from my own experience she has many ancestors living all over Norway. She was part of a group of Finns called Kvens, that migrated to the northern parts of Norway in the 17th and 18th century. And my guess is you can call it some sort of founder effect, when the Kvens came to some parts of northern Norway that was not very populated. Most of them mixed with Norwegians from the south and had alot of kids. Today you can find alot of her decendants all over Norway and parts of USA. And the Z1a haplogroup is probably showing up alot of places because of this.

  12. #79
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    After getting some more info on this maternal Z1a line, I have found out that it does not go directly back to Susanna Johansdatter as I wrongly wrote. But to another woman living in northern Norway in the Troms area around the same time, with very similar genetic background. But I can't be 100% sure her maternal line is Finnish Kven. All the other information do still apply.

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