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Thread: Z1a1a - Southwestern-Norwegian-cluster

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    Z1a1a - Southwestern-Norwegian-cluster

    I noticed that 4 out 50 mt-dna-samples from my native region of Rogaland in the Norway project are hg Z1a1a (There is an additional person from Rogaland in the Z-project). They all have the same haplotype :C16185T, T16187C, C16189T, T16224C, G16230A, C16260T, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, C146T, C151T, C195T, A247G, A249d, T489C, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C. So there must have been a recent founder-event. Bizarrely they share the haplotype with people in northern Finland. So I would assume that this is the haplotype from "A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia."?

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     Captain Nordic (07-26-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Johnsen View Post
    I noticed that 4 out 50 mt-dna-samples from my native region of Rogaland in the Norway project are hg Z1a1a (There is an additional person from Rogaland in the Z-project). They all have the same haplotype :C16185T, T16187C, C16189T, T16224C, G16230A, C16260T, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, C146T, C151T, C195T, A247G, A249d, T489C, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C. So there must have been a recent founder-event. Bizarrely they share the haplotype with people in northern Finland. So I would assume that this is the haplotype from "A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia."?
    I have a few 23andme Z1a matches with ancestry from Hordaland, so my best guess is that this is a Saami linage that has spread south from Trønderlag region perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    I have a few 23andme Z1a matches with ancestry from Hordaland, so my best guess is that this is a Saami linage that has spread south from Trønderlag region perhaps?
    I wouldn't be surprised if the "ultimate" origin was saami (seems very very likely), but I don't see the trønder-connection. For me it seems like this particular linage, I actually think it expanded from the northern parts of Rogaland. It seems only likely than some would end up in Hordaland. The Norway project does not have any Z in Trøndelag (one in Møre and one in Nordland, one in vest agder, one in aust-agder(lacks 522.1A, 522.2C) and one in the east).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Johnsen View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the "ultimate" origin was saami (seems very very likely), but I don't see the trønder-connection. For me it seems like this particular linage, I actually think it expanded from the northern parts of Rogaland. It seems only likely than some would end up in Hordaland. The Norway project does not have any Z in Trøndelag (one in Møre and one in Nordland, one in vest agder, one in aust-agder(lacks 522.1A, 522.2C) and one in the east).
    The reason I mention Trønderlag is because south Saami peoples have traditionally lived there and around the wider Røros region. I would think Z1a in Saami peoples stem from very few original Z1a lines, so they should all have the same mutations and match each other, which could explain the matches in Finland etc..

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    I found 6 hg Z in my first 300 23andme matches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    The reason I mention Trønderlag is because south Saami peoples have traditionally lived there and around the wider Røros region. I would think Z1a in Saami peoples stem from very few original Z1a lines, so they should all have the same mutations and match each other, which could explain the matches in Finland etc..
    I think it is only one linage. Maybe the saami person intermarried in Norland had one daughter who married someone in Møre (most of the rest of the daughter-lines only had sons/died out), the person in Møre who married someone in Rogaland (most of the rest of the daughter-lines only had sons/died out). This person had tons of daughter-lines that did not "die-out". It is hard to tell, but you clearly don't need many saami (most saami aren't Z1a1 after all).

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     evon (01-17-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Johnsen View Post
    So I would assume that this is the haplotype from "A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia."?
    It's not necessarily from the Volga-Ural but could come from a circumpolar route. Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov (3500ya) in Kola Peninsula had Z1a:

    2x 16129A, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C
    1x 16129A, 16155G, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C

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    Might be from Bjarmeland:

    http://avaldsnes.info/en/informasjon/hjor/

    Geirmund supposedly had mtDNA Z1A and his mother was from Bjarmeland (even though in small amounts Z1A is still found in Iceland today)

    Strongly recommend the book "The Black Viking" by Bergsveinn Birgisson

    http://icelandreview.com/stuff/views...ack-viking-esa

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    The problem with claiming it's of Sami origin is that not even (Norwegian) Samis have such a high frequency of Z (8%):
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
    In fact, Norwegian Samis lack the mitochondrial Z haplotype.

    Also, is there any evidence that Samis ever lived as far south as Rogaland?

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     Paul_Johnsen (08-01-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian Norseman View Post
    Might be from Bjarmeland:

    http://avaldsnes.info/en/informasjon/hjor/

    Geirmund supposedly had mtDNA Z1A and his mother was from Bjarmeland (even though in small amounts Z1A is still found in Iceland today)

    Strongly recommend the book "The Black Viking" by Bergsveinn Birgisson

    http://icelandreview.com/stuff/views...ack-viking-esa
    I doubt it's of Samoyed origin simply because Samoyeds never lived in Bjarmaland.
    Bjarmaland extended to the northern shores of the white sea and the Northern Dvina river. Samoyeds lived a bit further east.

    It is likely that the native inhabitants of Bjarmaland were Komi or some other type of Finnic tribe.

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