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Thread: italian j1, questions about my haplogroup

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon_74 View Post
    I'm afraid that you haven't prove yet that the J1* Semitic speaking Amharic people were P58 positive.

    It's obvious that the Amharic results were P56 positive due to its distinctive modal

    DYS393=12
    DYS390=24
    DYS19=14
    DYS391=11
    DYS385=12-19
    DYS388=15
    DYS439=11
    DYS389i=13
    DYS392=11

    Attachment 10616

    Looking at the STR values, it does indeed seem likely that these samples are P56 instead of P58, the assignment to P58 is probably due to the fact that P56 had not yet been discovered. IMO this just makes the remaining J1* all the more intriguing, it's a shame no one is taking the time to analyse East African J1 as it could have some ramifications on our understanding of J1's history.




    Maciamo's J1 tree is already outdated, I'd suggest using Victar Mas' tree (which is regularly updated) if you want to make a point.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy View Post
    I don't like people who try to deny their arabian or jewish roots. I am not talking about the origin poster in question but a lot of non arabian european j1's are so dead on finding any other explanation for their j1 marker ... it's your history..be proud of who you are.
    According to the genographic project my admixture is 68 per cent south european, 26 per cent asia minor, 2 per cent north africa, 2 per cent arabia and 0 per cent jewish diaspora.
    So, in central Italy we have a strong asia minor component. For the genographic project asia minor includes also northern Irak, Syria and Lebanon. According to recent papers the closest admixture match for central Italy, expecially for tuscany and umbria is Armenia or eastern Anatolia and the admixture took place 3000 years ago. I was born 20 miles away from umbria so I must have got some of that admixture. But my j-z1884 must have come from furher south.

    How much of my admixture comes from my paternal lineage? Is it 1 or 2 per cent? In which of my components could it fall, in your opinion? Sorry but I don't know the approximate percentage of my y dna.

    I've got another question. In the area where I was born we had during the 15th century a massive migration of people from the balkans and also of Jewish refugees from Iberia and southern Italy. We had lost nearly 1/3 of the population because of the black death and they replaced it. This is one of those events that can change dna. Is the 0 per cent Jewish diaspora component I've got reliable? Can I rule out definitely forgotten Jewish ancestry?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 09-05-2016 at 12:59 AM.

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  5. #63
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    I'd like to see more clarification on the 'neglected haplogroups' in Europe, incl J1.
    People need to be reminded that they could represent vestiges of some kick -ass Sarmatians, which might make European testees more in tune.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 09-05-2016 at 03:32 AM.

  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I'd like to see more clarification on the 'neglected haplogroups' in Europe, incl J1.
    People need to be reminded that they could represent vestiges of some kick -ass Sarmatians, which might make European testees more in tune.
    If I analyze my surname, Brega, in northern Italy there are similar or identical surnames and stem from the gaulish or ligure word for "hill", these surnames come from toponyms like Briga or Brega but J1 is very rare in northern Italy.

    In the napoleonic registry (1808/1814) my surname is found only in two villages in the Marche region. That suggests a late arrival, say 16th or 17th century.

    Given the massive balcanic migration and the sephardic refugees in my area, I had thought about the hebrew word "berakah" which apparently means blessing and generated surnames like Braca in southern Italy or perhaps Brecha/Bracha in eastern europe but I have found no proof of this in the registry. Besides, I appear to have o per cent jewish diaspora component.

    There is also the slavic word for "hill" or "slope, riverbank" which should be in ancient slavic Berg and in more recent slavic Breg. According to a moldovan paper, it generated the surname Brega in Moldova, and the forms Bregov, Bregovic, Bregu, etc in other balcanic countries.

    So, when you talk about Sarmatians, you were probably thinking about the migration from eastern europe I was talking about, for example Moldova?

    But it could also be the odd trader from the middle east.

    There is also Brega in Lybia but that's a name given by the italian fascists. It didn't have that name during the middle ages.
    Last edited by patrizio22; 09-05-2016 at 08:05 AM.

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    If I analyze my surname, Brega, in northern Italy there are similar or identical surnames and stem from the gaulish or ligure word for "hill", these surnames come from toponyms like Briga or Brega but J1 is very rare in northern Italy.

    Given the massive balcanic migration and the jewish refugees in my area, I had thought about the hebrew word "berakah" which apparently means blessing and generated surnames like Braca in southern Italy or perhaps Brecha/Bracha in eastern europe but I have found no proof of this yet.

    There is also the slavic word for "hill" or "slope, riverbank" which should be in ancient slavic Berg and in more recent slavic Breg. According to a moldovan paper, it generated Brega in Moldova, and the forms Bregov, Bregovic, Bregu, etc in other balcanic countries.

    So, when you talk about Sarmatians, you were probably thinking about the migration from eastern europe I was talking about, for example Moldova, Ukraine?

    There is also Brega in Lybia but that's a name given by the italian fascists. It didn't have that name during the middle ages.
    Don't forget the Brygians from ancient Thrace and Macedonia , although we're in speculation land now, and they moved east not west. But it just shows it was a common enough noun.

    Back to Samartians: there were several such groups which moved into the Carpathian basin from Ukraine (but their ultimate homeland ranged from Bactria to the pre-Ural region). One group was pacified by the Roman emperor Constantine and 100, 000 (no doubt inflated figure) are said to have been resettled in Macedonia, Italy etc
    Later came the Alans-Sarmatians who raided Italy, and settled in Iberia (Goth-Alania, or Catalonia, as one theory goes); not to mention the semi-mythical tale of King Arthur

    With more sequencing of modern and ancients; you will be able to pinpoint where your J1 came from
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 09-05-2016 at 07:52 AM.

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    According to the genographic project my admixture is 68 per cent south european, 26 per cent asia minor, 2 per cent north africa, 2 per cent arabia and 0 per cent jewish diaspora.So, in central Italy we have a strong asia minor component. For the genographic project asia minor includes also northern Irak, Syria and Lebanon.
    According to the Genographic project Tuscans have 4% Asia Minor, your "asia minor" is too high for central Italians and your results aren't average for Central Italy. 26% Asia Minor is extremely unexpected even for South Italy. Greeks have 9% Asia Minor, Romanians have 9% Asia Minor, Iberians have 4% Asia Minor and Sardinians have 2% Asia Minor. Romanians and Greeks have more Asia Minor than Tuscans (Central Italians). On the other hand, Tuscans have 28% Western & Central European and 0% Arabia.



    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1
    What towns exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    According to recent papers the closest admixture match for central Italy, expecially for tuscany and umbria is Armenia or eastern Anatolia and the admixture took place 3000 years ago. I was born 20 miles away from umbria so I must have got some of that admixture. But my j-z1884 must have come from furher south.
    You should read again "those recent papers" because they haven't stated that. J1 in the Appennines has very little to do with Etruscans.


    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    I've got another question. In the area where I was born we had during the 15th century a massive migration of people from the balkans and also of Jewish refugees from Iberia and southern Italy. We had lost nearly 1/3 of the population because of the black death and they replaced it. This is one of those events that can change dna. Is the 0 per cent Jewish diaspora component I've got reliable? Can I rule out definitely forgotten Jewish ancestry?
    26% Asia Minor. You've very likely recent non-Italian admixture. Btw your surname is nonexistent in Tuscany and Umbria.
    Last edited by Larth; 09-05-2016 at 10:28 AM.

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  10. #67
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    J1 is definitely not from the etruscans. Apparently they were mostly J2. I was just talking about admixture. My J1 is not armenian, it should come from the levant or mesopotamia.

    In the paper down here they say: “Admixture analysis indicates the presence of 25–34% of Middle Eastern component in modern Tuscans. …genetic distances point to Eastern Anatolia/Southern Caucasus as the most likely geographic origin of the main Middle Eastern genetic component observed in the genome of modern Tuscans.”

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0105920-g001

    So, it is different from the genographic project admixture. The fact is that GN doesn't appear to have an italian admixture. They only have tuscany and sardinia. In fact they estimated my origin as 1) Greek, 2) Iberian.

    On another thread on this forum there was an australian with italian ancestry and had 28 per cent asia minor component. At first I also thought that I must have had a recent ancestor straight from asia minor, perhaps an adoption, but it looks like we may have this kind of percentages.

    Please, look at the caucasian admixture map:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso..._dodecad.shtml

    My italian surname can be traced to a village a few miles from Umbria back to the late 17th century. It's too far back to have an important asia minor input from abroad. Perhaps they were foreigners in the 16th century but it's not enough to change significantly my admixture.

    As for the towns in Tuscany with y dna J1, yes, there are some but I don't remember which ones. But you must understand that in my first posts I had just had my results and was just trying to understand. I had just read a few articles on Eupedia. As you can see I'm still asking questions. But I now know more or less the area where l858 may be found today.
    Last edited by patrizio22; 09-05-2016 at 11:17 AM.

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  12. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    J1 is definitely not from the etruscans. Apparently they were mostly J2. I was just talking about admixture. My J1 is not armenian, it should come from the levant or mesopotamia.
    We still don't know what Y-DNAs were more common among the Etruscans. The only autosomal PCA chart based on three Etruscan samples shows that they fit in the Southern European cluster between Tuscans and Iberians, and even a bit more northern-shifted than them.




    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    In the paper down here they say: “Admixture analysis indicates the presence of 25–34% of Middle Eastern component in modern Tuscans. …genetic distances point to Eastern Anatolia/Southern Caucasus as the most likely geographic origin of the main Middle Eastern genetic component observed in the genome of modern Tuscans.”

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0105920-g001
    That paper was not taken into great consideration because the authors tried to prove a point without any comparison with the old sample but using modern-day sample only. A large percentage of that Middle Eastern component could be Neolithic, as stated by themselves in the paper (!).


    "Considering the recorded as well as the likely unrecorded population flows within Europe in the last couple of thousand years, the study of the Etruscans using modern DNA of their most presumable descendants, the Tuscans, is very challenging. For instance, the date obtained in the present study for the admixture estimates could actually represent a mixture of two European populations ~2,600–3,100 y.a., and not necessarily a mixture of a European and a Middle Eastern population [...] The Middle Eastern genomic patterns observed in present-day Tuscans could also be the result of various overlapping waves of migrants coming from different regions in Middle East and South Caucasus at different times; some of them could have arrived to this region in Neolithic times" (pp. 7-8).


    The same authors in a subsequent study failed to confirm these findings. They changed method and they obtained a different result, 8% instead of 21%, Iran instead of Anatolia. Basically they proved what Ghirotto, Tassi and others said in previous papers, that a link between Etruscans and Anatolia dates back to the Neolithic times and to a remote stage of prehistory. As we know this type of connection does not concern only the Etruscans.

    "Different analyses reveal the presence of typical Near East haplotypes in Tuscans representing isolated members of various mtDNA phylogenetic branches. As a whole, the Near East component in Tuscan mitogenomes can be estimated at about 8%; a proportion that is comparable to previous estimates but significantly lower than admixture estimates obtained from autosomal SNP data (21%). Phylogeographic and evolutionary inter-population comparisons indicate that the main signal of Near Eastern Tuscan mitogenomes comes from Iran."

    Anyway, in both the studies they used the Tuscan sample from The 1000 Genome Project. The geneticist who collected the sample stated that those Tuscan sample aren't very reliable because only three grandparents were born in Tuscany (and actually being born in Tuscany doesn't imply you're full Tuscan), and were collected in a particular town in Tuscany not linked with the Etruscan civilization.

    "1) These samples were collected from unrelated individuals in a particular town in Tuscany, Italy. They do not necessarily represent all Tuscans, nor all Italians, whose population history is complex. The samples should not be described merely as "Italian", "Southern European," "European" or "Caucasian" since each of those designators encompasses many populations with many different geographic ancestries.

    2) At least three out of four grandparents were born in Tuscany."


    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    So, it is different from the genographic project admixture. The fact is that GN doesn't appear to have an italian admixture. They only have tuscany and sardinia. In fact they estimated my origin as 1) Greek, 2) Iberian.

    On another thread on this forum there was an australian with italian ancestry and had 28 per cent asia minor component. At first I also thought that I must have had a recent ancestor straight from asia minor, perhaps an adoption, but it looks like we have this kind of percentages.
    In any case 28% is too high and more outlier than average.

  13. #69
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    If it's too high I should ask my parents if they know of any adoption in the family in the last three of four generations.

    Anyway there's something missing here. When it comes to admixture in central Italy they just concentrated on Tuscany. They ignored the adriatic side. We now know that eef was anatolian and was mostly G2a with a little H2 and T. But in the Marche region we have too much of other middle eastern Y haplogroups. I guess we must have the highest percentages of asia minor admixture.

    (We are not talking about my j-z1884, we talk about admixture)

    Look at the Y haplogroups by regions on this article:

    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

    If it is reliable you may see that we have a lot less R1b than tuscany, 34 per cent compared with 52.5 in Tuscany. We have a lot more J2, J1, 24.5, 6.5 compared to 11.5%, 2%. We have roughly the same neolithic G.

    Even in Umbria, where the umbrians lived, they have only 38 per cent of R1b and more J2, J1 than Tuscany, 24.5, 5.5 per cent, roughly the same E1b1b.

    In Abruzzo, 35.5% R1b, 21% j2, 5.5% J1.


    It looks like in these regions we may have had caucasian or levantine admixture which blended with italic and eef.

    In this study they found a y haplogroups cline between north western (northen and tuscany) and south eastern Italy ( marche and Umbria and southern Italy). They maintain the split happened during the late neolithic: "Our results suggest that the split happened around 5,490 YBP"

    Is there anyone more knowlegeable than me who can read this paper?

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

    If you look at the Y haplogroups J2 and J1 maps in the Marche, Umbria and Abruzzo we've got more J2 than anyone and a fair amount of J1.

    According to Eupedia, in their article on y haplogroup J2, J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

    If you read some papers, this is supposed to have happened during the late neolithic. But weren't EEF Y haplogroups G2a, H2 and T? So how did these middle eastern (I presume )J2 and J1 arrive?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 09-06-2016 at 09:09 PM.

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  15. #70
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    In italic inscriptions, apparently the italic tribe of the picentes in the Marche region called themselves "pupun" and the original tribe from which them and some other italics came out were called "safins". Some say the "safins" were the Sabines from Latium. In the 5th century bc these Picentes or "pupun" were speaking an indo europeans language which they call "south picene". But in the north of this region they found a stone with inscriptions in a language like no other. There's no language like this. It was written in etruscan alphabet but had nothing to do with etruscan. It was from around the 8th century bc. I think they found others further north. They called this language "north picene".
    Last edited by patrizio22; 09-07-2016 at 08:44 AM.

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