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Thread: Did Haplogroup I originate in Kurdistan?

  1. #21
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    I'm suggesting, for now, opening the field wide open to see where the data leads us without wedding to one particular method. We're well past the stage of relying on frequency data for deducing haplogroup origins (I assumed that was a relic of 2000-2009 era discussions).

    The absolute decider will always be aDNA, but in the absence of that, parahaplogroup distributions and Y-STR diversity might offer some useful clues.

    As you say, option 2 (as well as 1 actually) have demonstratively led us towards red herring conclusions (best example I can recall is the prior reports of substantial Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 STR diversity in South-Central Asia, whereas SNP testing has convincingly shown that the overwhelming majority of South-Central Asian R1a1a is in fact Z93+, and quite young at that).

    My current guess is we'll find some dead-end parahaplogroup forms of Y-DNA I* specifically in Anatolia, with the area of I and J's separation also happening around there.

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  3. #22
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    Doesn't it seem that the "epi-Magdalenian" population in the Jura and Swiss plateau came from the southwest--say up the Rhone River valley? At least the Azilian tool kit Bichon was found with has a strong association with that direction--he was in their neighborhood at least.

    There's some literature out there, like:

    Antiquity / Volume 87 / Issue 336 / June 2013, pp 384-404

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  5. #23
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    That makes sense to me. If I2 left Kurdistan about 27,000 years ago, moving into western Anatolia and SE Europe, that gives them well over 10,000 years to go from the eastern Adriatic region, across northern Italy, and become part of the Azilian Culture in northern Spain and southern France. Growing population in that area could have then pushed an expansion of surplus I2 males into the Rhone River Valley and beyond.
    ---------Ken
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by bix View Post
    Doesn't it seem that the "epi-Magdalenian" population in the Jura and Swiss plateau came from the southwest--say up the Rhone River valley? At least the Azilian tool kit Bichon was found with has a strong association with that direction--he was in their neighborhood at least.

    There's some literature out there, like:

    Antiquity / Volume 87 / Issue 336 / June 2013, pp 384-404

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    That makes sense to me. If I2 left Kurdistan about 27,000 years ago, moving into western Anatolia and SE Europe, that gives them well over 10,000 years to go from the eastern Adriatic region, across northern Italy, and become part of the Azilian Culture in northern Spain and southern France. Growing population in that area could have then pushed an expansion of surplus I2 males into the Rhone River Valley and beyond.
    ---------Ken
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And what new culture/ industry did this migration bring ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-01-2015 at 07:04 PM.

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  8. #25
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    Presumably the Ahrensburg Culture and Bromme Culture. But I also assume that Haplogroup I1 contributed to those cultures as well (having gone up the Danube River to Germany).

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    And what new culture/ industry did this migration bring ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Nah R1 has nothing to do with it
    R1 came late to Europe from Central Asia (Mesolithic)
    K/Capova cave still within Russia.
    the cave is best known for the 16.000 years old Upper Paleolithic rock paintings and drawings
    http://en.russia.edu.ru/russia/cities/ufa/1166/

    Anyway this is not about Indo-European R1a/b. This is about the origin of your paternal ancestry, I which has M429 at it's base
    Here is some work Kurd did; pretty good. Do you have any objection to his findings using ancient genomes?
    kurds ancients.png

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    K/Capova cave still within Russia.

    http://en.russia.edu.ru/russia/cities/ufa/1166/

    Anyway this is not about Indo-European R1a/b. This is about the origin of your paternal ancestry, I which has M429 at it's base
    Here is some work Kurd did; pretty good. Do you have any objection to his findings using ancient genomes?
    kurds ancients.png
    As it has already been pointed out to you, there was no IE when the earliest R1 clan came into existence; and not even much later when they moved into Mesolithic Eastern Europe. (But if you want to speculate about which language
    hunter-gatherers like Ahmarian-protoGravetian IJ* -or the upper Palaeolithic southeast Asian hunter gathers from which R derived- spoke, then you should pick a more appropriate thread; but IMO it's beyond the reach of realistic reconstruction)

    As for sapiens taxonomy; it's hard to say with so much of Eurasia yet unsampled ; but from what i understand WHG -EHG-ANE form a Clade of sorts- as has been highlighted in the Jones paper and various discussions on this and other forums (maybe you missed it) But it's still difficult to say . The tree will be continually modified as more samples are found . Whatever the case, I think it's clear that we're all children of the great Eurasian landmass; in slightly differing proportions
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-01-2015 at 10:00 PM.

  11. #28
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    I agree that parahaplogroups will be very useful, but we don't have many (yet) in this case.

    However, on YFull there is one fairly basal parahaplogroup, I-Y16419*, which is a man from the Kakheti region of Georgia. And that is a fairly short distance north of Kurdistan.

    Therefore, I still think Haplogroup I (and probably Haplogroup J as well) arose in Kurdistan or very closeby. So Kurdistan is likely to be where we will find even more basal parahaplogroups. Georgia, Armenia, and other countries in that area would also be likely places to look.
    ----------Ken
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I'm suggesting, for now, opening the field wide open to see where the data leads us without wedding to one particular method. We're well past the stage of relying on frequency data for deducing haplogroup origins (I assumed that was a relic of 2000-2009 era discussions).

    The absolute decider will always be aDNA, but in the absence of that, parahaplogroup distributions and Y-STR diversity might offer some useful clues.

    As you say, option 2 (as well as 1 actually) have demonstratively led us towards red herring conclusions (best example I can recall is the prior reports of substantial Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 STR diversity in South-Central Asia, whereas SNP testing has convincingly shown that the overwhelming majority of South-Central Asian R1a1a is in fact Z93+, and quite young at that).

    My current guess is we'll find some dead-end parahaplogroup forms of Y-DNA I* specifically in Anatolia, with the area of I and J's separation also happening around there.
    Last edited by kinman; 12-02-2015 at 05:08 PM.

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    I agree that parahaplogroups will be very useful, but we don't have many (yet) in this case.

    However, on YFull there is one fairly basal parahaplogroup, I-Y16419*, which is a man from the Kakheti region of Georgia. And that is a fairly short distance north of Kurdistan.

    Therefore, I still think Haplogroup I (and probably Haplogroup J as well) arose in Kurdistan or very closeby. So Kurdistan is likely to be where we will find even more basal parahaplogroups. Georgia, Armenia, and other countries in that area would also be likely places to look.
    ----------Ken
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That guy is just I2c
    Like I said; your proposed location is sensical; but I suspect your chronology is off by 10000 years or more
    But we can't have concrete conclusions at present until we get a couple of 22 k y old samples from Central Europe
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-02-2015 at 10:25 PM.

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    However, on YFull there is one fairly basal parahaplogroup, I-Y16419*, which is a man from the Kakheti region of Georgia. And that is a fairly short distance north of Kurdistan.
    Also from Middle East, Grugni et al found IJ*M-429/ in theory basal to I and J
    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/07/...iation-in.html
    Near East/Iraq--I* M170
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...996/table/TB1/
    Last edited by Silesian; 12-03-2015 at 01:18 AM.

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