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Thread: Did Haplogroup I originate in Kurdistan?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    Even if it didn't, there's no evidence to suggest that it did. Satsurblia only belongs to a specific lineage of J1, namely J1b. Sure, it's an archaic genome, but the Middle East has been inhabited for 120,000 years, there's no reason to think that J1 bifurcated in Europe based on a single ancient genome.
    Look under the history of Pakistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh

    Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riwat

  2. #12
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    Also we might be using definitions of "Europe "
    I don't count the Caucasus as Europe; but it's own distinct entity

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  4. #13
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    You ask a lot of questions, but aren't answering any. Anyway, as for the Bichon I2 sample, its ancestor could have been in the Balkans, or northern Italy, or even on the Danube. Should I know where they were at any given time?
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Let me answer your question with another question

    Where do you think the ancestors of the Bichon sample (central -Western European epi-Magdalenians) were c. 20 000 y BP ? A correct answer for this is contingent on the survival of your hypothesis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The rough geographic outline of common mutation IJ-M429[s2/22] linking one super group[Large portion of Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples] .
    The small black area, north of Black sea and Caspian is where R1a & R1b [R-M173] Europeans migrated both West/East/South[IMO].

    Attachment 6764
    Nah R1 has nothing to do with it
    R1 came late to Europe from Central Asia (Mesolithic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The rough geographic outline of common mutation IJ-M429[s2/22] linking one super group[Large portion of Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples] .
    The small black area, north of Black sea and Caspian is where R1a & R1b [R-M173] Europeans migrated both West/East/South[IMO].

    Attachment 6764
    IJ split took place long before the Afro-Asiatic languages appeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    You ask a lot of questions, but aren't answering any. Anyway, as for the Bichon I2 sample, its ancestor could have been in the Balkans, or northern Italy, or even on the Danube. Should I know where they were at any given time?
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    I gave you (what I think is) the answer. You just need to read between the lines
    But ask LGMayka or Michal for their views
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-01-2015 at 05:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Pauly, no proof bud
    as of yet, we have no European UP samples apart from the extinct line of Oase (IJK *); and of Kostenki (C1b), 36 ky BP.
    Obvoulsy; I is linked with IJ. The question is when did these separate ?
    I'd have thought what we know about WHG and CHG makes the answer very clear

    But we don't know who was where when. That is to say; who lived in the Caucasus -Kurdistan region c. 2500o y BP ?
    I've noticed that in modern populations, CHG seems to display higher frequencies in Kurds, oddly enough even Assyrians, Iraqi Jews and Iranian Jews have more than Armenians do. I could understand why Turks would have less, but it doesn't really make much sense for Armenians to have less than the aforementioned populations. I wonder if CHG could have expanded from the Zagros Mountains region, Iranian Jews have some of the highest proportions of Basal Eurasian ancestry second only to relatively isolated Arabian populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    I've noticed that in modern populations, CHG seems to display higher frequencies in Kurds, oddly enough even Assyrians, Iraqi Jews and Iranian Jews have more than Armenians do. I could understand why Turks would have less, but it doesn't really make much sense for Armenians to have less than the aforementioned populations. I wonder if CHG could have expanded from the Zagros Mountains region, Iranian Jews have some of the highest proportions of Basal Eurasian ancestry second only to relatively isolated Arabian populations.
    I think that is certainly possible. From the Jones paper, and the archaeological paper preceding it, it is apparent that these CHG guys arrived to the south Caucasus after the LGM. They appear to be a blend of 'basal Eurasian' and something basal in the 'Crown Eurasian' tree (EHG and WHG are much later descendents of some of the Crown Eurasians).

    So the late Palaeolithic and Mesolithic CHGs in Caucasus must have come from somewhere further south, after the peak glacial ameliorated, c. 20-18kya.

    But we don't know what pre-LGM groups would have looked like in the Caucasus. ? Kostenki like.
    Impossible to even hypothesize without adequate sampling.

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    So far, the only data shown here specifically addressing the Y-DNA I point of origin is frequency data. We'll need a lot more beyond that:

    1) Parahaplogroup data. Any funky subclades in West Asia? As far as I'm aware, most West Asian I is I2c (main subclade among Armenians). As far as current data pools go and to my knowledge, the biggest spectrum of Y-DNA I lineages is actually found in prehistoric Europe. Some IJ* was apparently picked up by Grugni et al. in Iran, which would certainly support a bifurcation between I and J somewhere around the region of Turkey and/or Iraqi Kurdistan or Iran itself (might have just served as an isolated refuge, impossible to determine without more data).

    2) Y-STR diversity data. Ties in with above to an extent. I'm not aware of any data comparing Y-STR diversity rates between Balkan and West Asian Y-DNA I.

    3) aDNA. We still have no retrieved Y-DNA from the historical Near-East (Mesopotamia & the Levant), the eastern half of the Anatolian plateau (apart from the northern portion of the Armenian highlands courtesy of Allentoft et al.) and the Iranian plateau.

    Autosomal data is certainly relevant given WHG is predominantly Y-DNA I and CHG is predominantly Y-DNA J thus far, but the discussion will be better grounded if we stick to the uniparental side of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    So far, the only data shown here specifically addressing the Y-DNA I point of origin is frequency data. We'll need a lot more beyond that:

    1) Parahaplogroup data. Any funky subclades in West Asia? As far as I'm aware, most West Asian I is I2c (main subclade among Armenians). As far as current data pools go and to my knowledge, the biggest spectrum of Y-DNA I lineages is actually found in prehistoric Europe. Some IJ* was apparently picked up by Grugni et al. in Iran, which would certainly support a bifurcation between I and J somewhere around the region of Turkey and/or Iraqi Kurdistan.

    2) Y-STR diversity data. Ties in with above to an extent. I'm not aware of any data comparing Y-STR diversity rates between Balkan and West Asian Y-DNA I.

    3) aDNA. We still have no retrieved Y-DNA from the historical Near-East (Mesopotamia & the Levant), the eastern half of the Anatolian plateau (apart from the northern portion of the Armenian highlands courtesy of Allentoft et al.) and the Iranian plateau.

    Autosomal data is certainly relevant given WHG is predominantly Y-DNA I and CHG is predominantly Y-DNA J thus far, but the discussion will be better grounded if we stick to the uniparental side of things.
    Very much agree. Although I'd possibly drop (2). STR diversity has led up the garden path in the past, and we know have nice clean SNP clades

    I2c is found in the good people of the Caucasus (I note it in the Armenia and Georgian ftDNA projects). And guess what - it was found in Neolithic Anatolia, possibly representing a shared Mesolithic component which stretched from Europe (incl Scandinavia) to Anatolia/ Caucasus. But given the otherwise dearth other I haplogroups in the Near East, I don't think the NE was the centre of diversity for I. But 'modern diversity' has also led us up the garden path ")

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