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Thread: Did Haplogroup I originate in Kurdistan?

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    Did Haplogroup I originate in Kurdistan?

    Hi All,
    I was looking at the modern distributions of the subclades of Haplogroup I, and they make me wonder if Haplogroup I originated in Kurdistan (and stayed there for about 15,000 years before splitting into I1 and I2).

    From there, they seem to have gone across Anatolia into the Balkans area, and then some going up the Danube to Germany, etc . Haplogroup I1 seems to have reached Sweden by 7500 years ago (if not before).

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    Hi All,
    I was looking at the modern distributions of the subclades of Haplogroup I, and they make me wonder if Haplogroup I originated in Kurdistan (and stayed there for about 15,000 years before splitting into I1 and I2).

    From there, they seem to have gone across Anatolia into the Balkans area, and then some going up the Danube to Germany, etc . Haplogroup I1 seems to have reached Sweden by 7500 years ago (if not before).

    Are you aware that haplogroup I2 was found in Central Europe c. 14000 years ago, and likely arrived ~ 25-35000 years ago?

    But if you'd said something about IJ* in Kurdistan c. 38000 y BP, then yes
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-01-2015 at 02:17 AM.

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    Haplogroup I arose about 42,000 years ago (a logical place would be Kurdistan in my opinion). They stayed there 15,000 years, split into I1 and I2, and then spread into Anatolia and SE Europe about 27,000 years ago. So being found ca. 14,000 years ago in Central Europe would be no surprise.

    However, I am curious who published that early occurence in Central Europe (and how they determined that I2 likely arrived there as early as 25-35000 years ago).
    -------------Ken
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I don't follow the logic of this hypothesis, and think it 100% unlikely

    Are you aware that haplogroup I2 was found in Central Europe c. 14000 years ago, and likely arrived ~ 25-35000 years ago?

    But if you'd said something about IJ* in Kurdistan c. 38000 y BP, then yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    Haplogroup I arose about 42,000 years ago (a logical place would be Kurdistan in my opinion). They stayed there 15,000 years, split into I1 and I2, and then spread into Anatolia and SE Europe about 27,000 years ago. So being found ca. 14,000 years ago in Central Europe would be no surprise.


    -------------Ken
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And which event after c. 27 kya would have elicited its arrival ?
    and how would you marry this hypothesis of yours with the contradictory autosomal evidence, or the absence of any I diversity in modern Caspian region ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-01-2015 at 02:51 AM.

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    I suppose the I1 and I2 who moved on did so for the same reason some R1b moved west---a growing population outstripped the available good niches in their homeland. The surplus males move on to greener pastures (if they can find them).

    Any of them who did go in the direction of the Caspian Sea probably eventually got smacked down (or driven back) by R1b (or other haplogroups) who were more aggressive.

    And what is the contrdictory autosomal evidence?
    -------------------------Ken
    P.S. If Haplogroup I didn't arise in Kurdistan, what other locale would you suggest is more logical?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    And which event after c. 27 kya would have elicited its arrival ?
    and how would you marry this hypothesis of yours with the contradictory autosomal evidence, or the absence of any I diversity in modern Caspian region ?
    Last edited by kinman; 12-01-2015 at 03:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    And which event after c. 27 kya would have elicited its arrival ?
    and how would you marry this hypothesis of yours with the contradictory autosomal evidence, or the absence of any I diversity in modern Caspian region ?
    Can you please provide the proof that JI didn't split somewhere in Europe.

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    Let me answer your question with another question

    Where do you think the ancestors of the Bichon sample (central -Western European epi-Magdalenians) were c. 20 000 y BP ? A correct answer for this is contingent on the survival of your hypothesis
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-01-2015 at 03:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Can you please provide the proof that JI didn't split somewhere in Europe.
    Even if it didn't, there's no evidence to suggest that it did. Satsurblia only belongs to a specific lineage of J1, namely J1b. Sure, it's an archaic genome, but the Middle East has been inhabited for 120,000 years, there's no reason to think that J1 bifurcated in Europe based on a single ancient genome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Can you please provide the proof that JI didn't split somewhere in Europe.
    Pauly, no proof bud
    as of yet, we have no European UP samples apart from the extinct line of Oase (IJK *); and of Kostenki (C1b), 36 ky BP.
    Obvoulsy; I is linked with IJ. The question is when did these separate ?
    I'd have thought what we know about WHG and CHG makes the answer very clear

    But we don't know who was where when. That is to say; who lived in the Caucasus -Kurdistan region c. 2500o y BP ?

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    The rough geographic outline of common mutation IJ-M429[s2/22] linking one super group[Large portion of Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples] .
    The small black area, north of Black sea and Caspian is where R1a & R1b [R-M173] Europeans migrated both West/East/South[IMO].

    ydna IJ-M29.jpg

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