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Thread: Scientists Prepare to Solve Mystery of Sumerian DNA

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baws View Post
    From just 5 Middle Bronze Age Armenians you make such an assumption? 2 are E1b1b, 2 R1b and the other J2b2. Which makes us group by percentage like this:

    40% E1b1b
    40% R1b
    20% J2b2

    But 5 samples are prone to such a bias. The probability is too great.
    Middle Bronze Age Armenians are E-M123 and R1b, the rest are Late Bronze Age.

    People here make assumptions with even less samples.
    Last edited by Passa; 11-29-2015 at 01:33 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Guessing the most popular Y-DNA haplogroup will be J (J1 and J2?), followed by T, G and E.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    you forget that one of the sumerian remains little bit later in time from 2550 bc http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml {go to middle of the page bronze age section}
    belong to mtdna L2A1 which is great find you can add to that the tres montes iberia and you got
    african mtdna in euroasia at least since the bronze age period.
    regards adam

    i would have add tel halulla but it turn L3 mtdna instead of mtdna L2
    if i am not mistake most euroasian mtdna descendnts from L3.
    unfortunately, it'll be good news if it was L2A1, old cousin from a great age
    Last edited by Darko; 11-29-2015 at 01:57 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    * As mentioned elsewhere on the forum, it doesn't look like the old modern population based ADMIXTURE runs were completely useless, as the "Mediterranean" and "West Asian" components successfully predicted both EEF and CHG's modal areas and overall distribution. So, that leaves us with "Southwest Asian".
    That is an excellent point. I just checked out the pop average spreadsheets in the dodecad v3 calculator, and Saudis and Yemeni Jews score heaviest in this component at ~ 71%. Bedouins are a distant third at 41%, and other Middle Easterners range from 20-30%. So, a penninsular origin of a third Middle Eastern component seems possible.
    Last edited by K33; 11-29-2015 at 04:48 PM.

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  9. #25
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    Since everyone is busy making educated guesses, I'm gonna put my money on G1 and T-M70
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 11-29-2015 at 05:52 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Since everyone is busy making educated guesses, I'm gonna put my money on G1 and T-M70
    Means you believe Sumerian and Elamite are related?)

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    Means you believe Sumerian and Elamite are related?)
    Not at all, this is a linguistic issue and only diachronic linguistic studies will provide answers to such questions.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    Means you believe Sumerian and Elamite are related?)
    Sumerian and elamite were probably related. At one point the material culture of zagros and mesopotamia was near identical to one another. And this continuum existed from gilan to khuzestan. I've seen this in the national museum of Iran. I suspect there was a slew of pre-semitic and pre-IE cultures that were related to each other that existed throughout the mesopotamian flatlands and zagros mountain basin. And probably genetically mixtures of CHG- Early Neolithic farmers without WHG/EHG/SW Asian type admixture. The linguistic landscape and the genetic landscape changed with the subsequent arrival of afro-asiatic and IE-invaders. The Armenians did not have any SW type ancestry until the iron age. And modern day North Caucasians have tiny amounts to none due to the caucasus terrain and landscape serving as a barrier and buffer. My guess is that sumerians either had very little or none of this. By the time of Assyrian empire this SW-Asian type of ancestry must have been widespread in the levant and surrounding regions.

    As for the Sumerian. I predict G-J-R1b Y-DNA and MTDNA HV-T-R0. HV is a very typical of archaic west Asian MTDNA mutations, and is very typical of neolithic women found in the levant. J1 and J2 MTDNA don't seem to emerge until the copper age. There was a paper posted by Humanist that listed Sequenced MTDNA from neolithic sites that would be useful here.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 11-29-2015 at 08:07 PM.

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    That is an excellent point. I just checked out the pop average spreadsheets in the dodecad v3 calculator, and Saudis and Yemeni Jews score heaviest in this component at ~ 71%. Bedouins are a distant third at 41%, and other Middle Easterners range from 20-30%. So, a penninsular origin of a third Middle Eastern component seems possible.
    I'd like to use my results from dodecad v3 vs the Eurasia K11 calculator as a sort of litmus test to expand on this proposal:




    The following relationships are almost direct correlations:

    WHG = West European
    EHG = East European
    ENF = Mediterranean

    Now, notice how the dv3 calculator's Southwest Asian ONLY cannibalizes the "West Asian" from K11, and doesn't at all reduce K11's ENF component? (SW Asian gets an extra boost by cannibalizing some of the K11's East African). This is telling us something. It means that the phantom SW Asian component is closer to CHGs than to ENFs. Given the great genetic diversity of HG J1/J2 in the Caucasus, it's possible that one J1 branch of herders moved west to the mountainous areas of Europe (which i still the most common area for European J1), while another branch moved south to the Levant and Arabia. This is what maciamo has to say about J1-P58:
    J1-P58, the Central Semitic branch of J1, appears to have expanded from the southern Levant (Israel, Palestine, Jordan) across the Arabian peninsula during the Bronze Age, from approximately 3,500 to 2,500 BCE. Camels were domesticated in Somalia and southern Arabia c. 3,000 BCE, but did not become widely used in the southern Levant before approximately 1,100 BCE. Camels played an important role in the further diffusion of J1-P58 lineages, notably with the Bedouins in the desertic parts of the Middle East and North Africa.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

    Would this J-1 dominated Arabian herder population be isolated long enough to drift into its own cluster, distinct from the ancestral CHG population?

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  19. #30
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    I'm going to guess E1b1b, because its everywhere. Seems like a safe bet.

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