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Thread: Scientists Prepare to Solve Mystery of Sumerian DNA

  1. #11
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    My guess, based on Middle Bronze Age Armenians having E-M123 at 67%, is that Sumerians will turn out to have a similar amount of E.

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  3. #12
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    I'm going to guess...

    Y-DNA: mix of E, G2a, J (mix of J1 and J2?) and T.
    mtDNA: More varied, but would feature U7, HV, J1.
    auDNA: More "Basal Eurasian" than CHG and EEF, some signs of admixture from either of those components among them, with a predominant layer of a new component that's best represented today by Near-Eastern nomadic groups ("Peninsular Hunter-Gatherer"?).*

    * As mentioned elsewhere on the forum, it doesn't look like the old modern population based ADMIXTURE runs were completely useless, as the "Mediterranean" and "West Asian" components successfully predicted both EEF and CHG's modal areas and overall distribution. So, that leaves us with "Southwest Asian".

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passa View Post
    My guess, based on Middle Bronze Age Armenians having E-M123 at 67%, is that Sumerians will turn out to have a similar amount of E.
    Huh? Could you point to the source of this claim?

    MBA Armenians and Sumerians are two vastly different groups if go by what archeology and linguistics have to say. I don't see why genetic wise they should be very similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    Huh? Could you point to the source of this claim?

    MBA Armenians and Sumerians are two vastly different groups if go by what archeology and linguistics have to say. I don't see why genetic wise they should be very similar.
    Passa might be attributing the E-M123 in the MBA Armenians to the Uruk Expansion, which is a viable proposition at this point in my opinion.

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    Huh? Could you point to the source of this claim?

    MBA Armenians and Sumerians are two vastly different groups if go by what archeology and linguistics have to say. I don't see why genetic wise they should be very similar.
    Middle Bronze Age Armenians have 67% of E-M123 (2/3, https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/).

    E-M123 represents the pre-IE layer of Armenians and very likely of SW Asians too (see the Solluba hunter-gatherers and their high E-M123 frequency), so it's reasonable to think that E was prominent among Sumerians too.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passa View Post
    Middle Bronze Age Armenians have 67% of E-M123 (2/3, https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/).

    E-M123 represents the pre-IE layer of Armenians and very likely of SW Asians too (see the Solluba hunter-gatherers and their high E-M123 frequency), so it's reasonable to think that E was prominent among Sumerians too.
    Armenian pre-IE layer is Hurrian and Urartian. They have linguistic connections with NE-Caucasian language families and additionally most Brozne Age Armenians are like modern NE-Caucasians plus ENF. I fail to see how you can assume Sumerians were like them. Before IE-arrival there most certainly were many different local language and ethnic groups in Middle East.

    I can see how Sumerians could have a lot of E but let's be more accurate. Sumerians are a mixture of Neolithic Settlers from Ubaid/Samarran culture from the North and some invading(?) tribes that brough Sumerian language.
    We probably will see a mix of E, G (both from farmer groups) and maybe J (could be Sumerian haplo)

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passa View Post
    Middle Bronze Age Armenians have 67% of E-M123 (2/3, https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/).

    E-M123 represents the pre-IE layer of Armenians and very likely of SW Asians too (see the Solluba hunter-gatherers and their high E-M123 frequency), so it's reasonable to think that E was prominent among Sumerians too.
    Passa, where did you find out that the Solluba have high Haplogroup E? The Solluba are very mysterious and obscure, and, now that they have been settled and urbanized, I doubt that they can be distinctly discerned from the Arab majority today.

    If you have a source, I would strongly appreciate it if you share it with us here.

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Passa, where did you find out that the Solluba have high Haplogroup E? The Solluba are very mysterious and obscure, and, now that they have been settled and urbanized, I doubt that they can be distinctly discerned from the Arab majority today.

    If you have a source, I would strongly appreciate it if you share it with us here.
    Sure.

    "Samples for DNA analysis were collected from volunteers from the Adnani tribes of Al-Aniza, Mutran and Awazim (a Suluba tribe), and the Qahtani tribes of Ajman, Shimar and Murrah. This selection is representative of the most prominent tribes of Adnani and Qahtani lineages of Arabia. Results from the sample were compared with data from other populations derived from the literature."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...69035/#S1title

    "The Awazim stand out because of their high frequency of haplogroup E-M123 (24.3 %), the highest yet reported in any population. The highest frequency reported previously (23.5 %) was in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2004). The Awazim also showed the presence of haplogroup R2 (R-M124), characteristic of South Asia (Sengupta et al., 2006). There may be a possible link to the Roma (‘Gypsy’) migrations. It has also been proposed that the Awazim may have originated from the Caucasus—also consistent with the theory of “Suluba” (Bell and Richmond, 1937). The presence of markers M123 and M124 may also suggest that slaves brought before the initiation of Islam and after the passing of the four Caliph eras (Lewis, 1990) have been naturalized within these tribes—perhaps when slavery was abolished."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...69035/#S9title



    For comparison, the Awazim were the only Kuwaiti group in which E-M123 was reported.

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    From just 5 Middle Bronze Age Armenians you make such an assumption? 2 are E1b1b, 2 R1b and the other J2b2. Which makes us group by percentage like this:

    40% E1b1b
    40% R1b
    20% J2b2

    But 5 samples are prone to such a bias. The probability is too great.

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  19. #20
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    Passa,

    Thank you very much for this paper. It is very interesting indeed.

    I really wonder, however, if the assignment of the Awazim as a 'Solluba' tribe is correct, as the Solluba resemble something like gypsies or those types of 'service nomads' that you find in India, except in this case being hunters and desert guides, and these 'outcaste' groups have not been treated kindly by modernity. The Awazim are really a rather prominent and numerous, settled tribe, and are not really 'outcastes' though they are 'Khadiri' or 'low-class' in the Arab tribal system, and I wonder if it really correlates to the 'Solluba' identity?

    Are there any Arabs here who can answer this question? Does anyone know an Arab here?
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 11-29-2015 at 01:23 PM.

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