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Thread: Scientists Prepare to Solve Mystery of Sumerian DNA

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    In others words, Sumerians had a Y-DNA profile that wasn't much different from that of (both ancient and modern) Semitic speakers (despite having very different languages!)?
    I'd surmise they were quite close to Iran_Neolithic, with larger amounts of BE ancestry, their Y-DNA profile might well've been wildly different insofar as markers which are now rare might've had inflated frequencies (R2a, T1a, G1 and J1-Z1842 are the prime suspects I have in mind). The current Y-DNA profile in the region was shaped by historical events to no small extent, the expansion of Arab tribes, the spread of Islam, the Mongol invasions (and the demographic desert they created)... All these events are likely to have had an important role. For instance, I would not expect the earliest East Semitic-speaking communities to have carried the exact same J1 branches (assuming J1 was a major marker among them) we now find among a majority of J1 Iraqis.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-16-2017 at 12:30 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd surmise they were quite close to Iran_Neolithic, with larger amounts of BE ancestry, their Y-DNA profile might well've been wildly different insofar as markers which are now rare might've had inflated frequencies (R2a, T1a, G1 and J1-Z1842 are the prime suspects I have in mind). The current Y-DNA profile in the region was shaped by historical events to no small extent, the expansion of Arab tribes, the spread of Islam, the Mongol invasions (and the demographic desert they created)... All these events are likely to have had an important role. For instance, I would not expect the earliest East Semitic-speaking communities to have carried the exact same J1 branches (assuming J1 was a major marker among them) we now find among a majority of J1 Iraqis.
    Can we say that they (most likely) lacked E-M34, E-Z830 or E-M78?
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Can we say that they (most likely) lacked E-M34, E-Z830 or E-M78?
    Can't say they lacked these markers, in fact I'd be surprised if they did, on the other hand I doubt the Sumerians carried these in large amounts. Could be wrong though of course.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd surmise they were quite close to Iran_Neolithic, with larger amounts of BE ancestry, their Y-DNA profile might well've been wildly different insofar as markers which are now rare might've had inflated frequencies (R2a, T1a, G1 and J1-Z1842 are the prime suspects I have in mind). The current Y-DNA profile in the region was shaped by historical events to no small extent, the expansion of Arab tribes, the spread of Islam, the Mongol invasions (and the demographic desert they created)... All these events are likely to have had an important role. For instance, I would not expect the earliest East Semitic-speaking communities to have carried the exact same J1 branches (assuming J1 was a major marker among them) we now find among a majority of J1 Iraqis.
    Brilliant analysis Aga, what is your opinion on J2a in the area around that time? Is not J2 found in higher frequencies in North Iraq and is the second largest in Iran?

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  9. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd surmise they were quite close to Iran_Neolithic, with larger amounts of BE ancestry, their Y-DNA profile might well've been wildly different insofar as markers which are now rare might've had inflated frequencies (R2a, T1a, G1 and J1-Z1842 are the prime suspects I have in mind). The current Y-DNA profile in the region was shaped by historical events to no small extent, the expansion of Arab tribes, the spread of Islam, the Mongol invasions (and the demographic desert they created)... All these events are likely to have had an important role. For instance, I would not expect the earliest East Semitic-speaking communities to have carried the exact same J1 branches (assuming J1 was a major marker among them) we now find among a majority of J1 Iraqis.
    It has been almost 2 years since this thread. So the mummies were J branches? Doesn't seem like the findings were ever published unless the study is still ongoing.

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    For the foundation lineages of the Sumerians I would expect mostly J1, J2, G2, G1, T1a, and R2a, with maybe some H2 and L. I don't think we would see any significant E-M123 until after 2500 BC, when the Akkadians started infiltrating Mesopotamia and gradually began Semiticizing the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    It has been almost 2 years since this thread. So the mummies were J branches? Doesn't seem like the findings were ever published unless the study is still ongoing.
    The only J mummies we have so far are from pre-Ptolemaic Egypt, both J1-YSC234 and J2b1-M205 were found (in samples JK2134 and JK2911 respectively). We have no Sumerian individuals so far, in fact ancient data from Mesopotamia is sorely needed in order to understand the Middle East's genetic past. The more time passes, the more likely it seems to me that J1 and J2a will show up in a set of Mesopotamian individuals who will in all likeliness closely resemble Iran_Chalcolithic (and not Iran_Neolithic).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The only J mummies we have so far are from pre-Ptolemaic Egypt, both J1-YSC234 and J2b1-M205 were found (in samples JK2134 and JK2911 respectively). We have no Sumerian individuals so far, in fact ancient data from Mesopotamia is sorely needed in order to understand the Middle East's genetic past. The more time passes, the more likely it seems to me that J1 and J2a will show up in a set of Mesopotamian individuals who will in all likeliness closely resemble Iran_Chalcolithic (and not Iran_Neolithic).
    I completely agree with you, I think even Syria would prove to have some remarkable finds, hopefully one day Iraq and Syria will be able to be tested.

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