Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 148

Thread: Scientists Prepare to Solve Mystery of Sumerian DNA

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    143
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic, Near East
    Nationality
    Murcan
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152 (Alsatian)
    mtDNA
    T2a1a

    United States of America Palestine Germany Ireland

    Scientists Prepare to Solve Mystery of Sumerian DNA

    http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2014/0...-sumerian-dna/

    This article is 15 months old, so hopefully this paper should be coming out soon. I wanted to open this thread for general speculation, theories, etc beforehand... so that when the data comes back we can all see how wrong we were.

    The time period they've dated the boy to is really ideal -- 4500 BC, the "Ubaid" period, when these proto-Sumerians were still village-based people. This should fill a crucial gap in both time and space -- the only other Neolithic genomes they've sequenced IIRC come from Anatolia, the Levant, and extreme western Iraq. It's also nice that the skeleton is a boy so we will get y-dna in addition to mtdna. Of course, a single y-dna sample will likely not prove or disprove anything... the much more interesting piece will be the autosomal data, and in particular a) If proto-Sumerians are indeed closely related to the "ENF" population identified in early Neolithic Anatolia, and if so, b) whether this "late" Neolithic boy shows CHG admixture that the early Anatolian samples seemed to lack.

    I've speculated here that CHG-like peoples may have gradually mixed with ENF-like base population throughout the Neolithic across the middle east... of course this is pure speculation based on how seemingly ubiquitous and uniform CHG admixture is throughout the middle east today.

    I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts...

  2. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to K33 For This Useful Post:

     Arbogan (11-29-2015), Baws (11-29-2015), dp (11-30-2015), Hando (11-29-2015), icebreaker (11-29-2015), J Man (11-29-2015), Judith (12-26-2016), NK19191 (11-29-2015), paulgill (11-30-2015), pgbk87 (02-24-2016), Piquerobi (11-29-2015), Tomenable (11-30-2015), Yaroslav (06-23-2016), ZephyrousMandaru (11-29-2015)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    605
    Sex
    Omitted

    I'm going to go with the exact opposite of what anyone else thinks
    ...because let's face it, that's probably what will be right ^_^

    But seriously...
    According to the Ancestraljourneys website, we have 3 Sumerian mtdna from 2900-2700BC...H14a, U4, and U4a2b.
    Same source...there's a good chunk of U4 in mesolithic Europe, boatloads in Pitted Ware culture, a resounding 4 out of the hundreds of other neolithics
    ...good chunk in the whole supposed Indo-European chain of cultures, and none in the Near Eastern neolithic.
    I'll go bold and say it was part EEF, part CHG, and part EHG. And with only 1 y-dna, o boy we'll never hear the end of it. I'll put the odds as follows
    25% J
    20% G2
    20% R1
    10% some other neolithic lineage like H2,T
    5% I
    5% E
    5% something south asian centered (H, L, R2)
    5% something lacking modern descendents (F*,G*,K1*)
    1% African (A or b)
    4% WTF!? (D, O, neanderthal lol)

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kale For This Useful Post:

     dp (11-30-2015), Hando (11-29-2015), paulgill (11-30-2015)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,890
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Even more important than a single Y lineage is the autosomal information it will impart; to allow a more precise reconstruction of the peopling of Eurasia

    But yeah, my guess is a 3 way split between J, G and some form of E-M78

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-29-2015), Passa (11-29-2015)

  7. #4
    Banned
    Posts
    877
    Sex
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ethnicity
    Scythian Massagetae
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    J1-ZS3668>>FGC41588
    mtDNA
    H14a+[3 Extras]

    Canada Germany Sikh Empire Sweden Russian Federation India
    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I'm going to go with the exact opposite of what anyone else thinks
    ...because let's face it, that's probably what will be right ^_^

    But seriously...
    According to the Ancestraljourneys website, we have 3 Sumerian mtdna from 2900-2700BC...H14a, U4, and U4a2b.
    Same source...there's a good chunk of U4 in mesolithic Europe, boatloads in Pitted Ware culture, a resounding 4 out of the hundreds of other neolithics
    ...good chunk in the whole supposed Indo-European chain of cultures, and none in the Near Eastern neolithic.
    I'll go bold and say it was part EEF, part CHG, and part EHG. And with only 1 y-dna, o boy we'll never hear the end of it. I'll put the odds as follows
    25% J
    20% G2
    20% R1
    10% some other neolithic lineage like H2,T
    5% I
    5% E
    5% something south asian centered (H, L, R2)
    5% something lacking modern descendents (F*,G*,K1*)
    1% African (A or b)
    4% WTF!? (D, O, neanderthal lol)
    Yes, I am J1-Z1853>>WGS results just received which I don't know how to interpret, I am also H14a, so any scientific work on these lineages be really good for me, I guess.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to paulgill For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-29-2015)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    143
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic, Near East
    Nationality
    Murcan
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152 (Alsatian)
    mtDNA
    T2a1a

    United States of America Palestine Germany Ireland
    Heh, in the "Teal" thread I outlined a theory by which the recently-discovered CHG population spread its genetics throughout the [presumbly ENF-dominated] Neolithic Middle East:

    It seems likely that J-bearing pastoralist-raiders (descendants of the CHG refugia population) descended from their mountains throughout the Near East after the LGM and engaged in a protracted back-and-forth battle with farmers-- perhaps lasting for multiple millenia throughout the Neolithic-- before gradually at least partially converting to agriculture and integrating with the local ENF population. This early, pre-Bronze Age dispersal would explain the ubiquitous ~35% CHG admixture observed throughout Mesopotamia, the Levant, Anatolia, and even the Arabian penninsula.

    ... The northern entrance of the Zagros range would indeed seem an attractive migration route for mountainous CHG peoples into greater Mesopotamia, the Iranian plateau, and Balochistan.
    Reading through some ancient near eastern lore earlier, I couldn't help but make a connection between the CHG peoples in my theory and the Gutians of Sumero-Akkadian accounts:

    Gutians were a nomadic people of the Zagros Mountains in ancient times. They are often regarded as precursors of the modern Kurds.
    Conflict with Gutium or Qutium (Sumerian: Gu-tu-umki or Gu-ti-umki) has been linked to the collapse of the Akkadian Empire, towards the end of the 3rd millennium BCE. The Guti subsequently overran southern Mesopotamia and formed, for several generations a royal dynasty of Sumer.
    Sumerian sources portray the Guti as a barbarous and rapacious people from the mountains, presumably the central Zagros east of Babylon and north of Elam (on the border of modern Iran and Iraq).
    The Sumerian accounts of the Gutians are no different than the Roman accounts of the Germanic or the Illyrian tribesman, the Chinese accounts of the Xiongnu or later the Mongols, and unquestionably of the Harrapans re: the Indo-Aryans. All of these marauding peoples were nomadic or semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers, and this type of social organization is always associated with a high esteem for martial prowess and a relatively low esteem for civilizational refinement.
    Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, one of its many meanings being "light colored".
    Coincidentally, the Kotias and Satsurblia specimens were found lacking in the genes for light hair/eyes but apparently did posses the mutation for light skin. If true, the quoted attestation above inversely identifies the Sumerians as dark-colored. Which is of course further supported by the universally recognized self-attestation of Sumerians as the "black-headed peoples".

    So, to bring this thread full circle and er, back on topic, in light of the J1 & J2 found in CHG, and the J1 found in Karelia, I'd move away from my old hunch that J1 or J2 was a dominant Sumerian lineage. I would instead place my money on haplogroups like G2, T, and possibly E1. Autosomally I'd expect this proto-Sumerian to be overwhelmingly ENF-oriented. But a South Indian connection cannot be ruled out in consideration of the limited physical descriptions we have to work with and given the enduring ASI admixture along the northern rim of the Persian Gulf.

  10. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to K33 For This Useful Post:

     Awale (12-03-2015), Baws (11-29-2015), DMXX (11-29-2015), dp (11-30-2015), Hando (11-29-2015), NK19191 (11-29-2015), paulgill (11-30-2015)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,097
    Sex
    Location
    שארית הפליטה
    Ethnicity
    Shema Yisrael
    Nationality
    jewishwith thracian blood
    Y-DNA
    E-S11956
    mtDNA
    h3ap -plovdiv

    you forget that one of the sumerian remains little bit later in time from 2550 bc http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml {go to middle of the page bronze age section}
    belong to mtdna L2A1 which is great find you can add to that the tres montes iberia and you got
    african mtdna in euroasia at least since the bronze age period.
    regards adam

    i would have add tel halulla but it turn L3 mtdna instead of mtdna L2
    if i am not mistake most euroasian mtdna descendnts from L3.
    Last edited by kingjohn; 11-29-2015 at 08:34 AM. Reason: more information

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kingjohn For This Useful Post:

     Darko (11-29-2015), Hando (11-30-2015), paulgill (11-29-2015)

  13. #7
    Banned
    Posts
    877
    Sex
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ethnicity
    Scythian Massagetae
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    J1-ZS3668>>FGC41588
    mtDNA
    H14a+[3 Extras]

    Canada Germany Sikh Empire Sweden Russian Federation India
    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Heh, in the "Teal" thread I outlined a theory by which the recently-discovered CHG population spread its genetics throughout the [presumbly ENF-dominated] Neolithic Middle East:

    Reading through some ancient near eastern lore earlier, I couldn't help but make a connection between the CHG peoples in my theory and the Gutians of Sumero-Akkadian accounts:

    The Sumerian accounts of the Gutians are no different than the Roman accounts of the Germanic or the Illyrian tribesman, the Chinese accounts of the Xiongnu or later the Mongols, and unquestionably of the Harrapans re: the Indo-Aryans. All of these marauding peoples were nomadic or semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers, and this type of social organization is always associated with a high esteem for martial prowess and a relatively low esteem for civilizational refinement.
    Coincidentally, the Kotias and Satsurblia specimens were found lacking in the genes for light hair/eyes but apparently did posses the mutation for light skin. If true, the quoted attestation above inversely identifies the Sumerians as dark-colored. Which is of course further supported by the universally recognized self-attestation of Sumerians as the "black-headed peoples".

    So, to bring this thread full circle and er, back on topic, in light of the J1 & J2 found in CHG, and the J1 found in Karelia, I'd move away from my old hunch that J1 or J2 was a dominant Sumerian lineage. I would instead place my money on haplogroups like G2, T, and possibly E1. Autosomally I'd expect this proto-Sumerian to be overwhelmingly ENF-oriented. But a South Indian connection cannot be ruled out in consideration of the limited physical descriptions we have to work with and given the enduring ASI admixture along the northern rim of the Persian Gulf.
    I think the Gutians are the YueZie, Getae, Massagetae, Scythians, basicaly R1a1a, with some J2, J1 and G2.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to paulgill For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-29-2015)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    787
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    M-175
    mtDNA
    D5a2

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    you forget that one of the sumerian remains little bit later in time from 2550 bc http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml {go to middle of the page bronze age section}
    belong to mtdna L2A1 which is great find you can add to that the tres montes iberia and you got
    african mtdna in euroasia at least since the bronze age period.
    regards adam

    i would have add tel halulla but it turn L3 mtdna instead of mtdna L2
    if i am not mistake most euroasian mtdna descendnts from L3.
    Huh??!

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Hando For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (11-29-2015)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,097
    Sex
    Location
    שארית הפליטה
    Ethnicity
    Shema Yisrael
    Nationality
    jewishwith thracian blood
    Y-DNA
    E-S11956
    mtDNA
    h3ap -plovdiv

    dear hando ,amazing isn't it?
    Sumerian Syria Mari [12] 2550 BC L2a1 16223T, 16256T, 16261T, 16278T, 16294T, 16309G Fernández 2005

    best regards
    adam

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to kingjohn For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-29-2015), paulgill (11-29-2015)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    18

    If Sumerians came from the South just as they claimed, from the island of Dilmun, i bet they were high in Basal Eurasian.

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Baws For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (11-29-2015), dp (11-30-2015), Hando (11-30-2015)

Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 123
    Last Post: 08-28-2017, 02:45 AM
  2. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-03-2015, 09:11 PM
  3. Can you solve mystery of writing on British sword?
    By MikeWhalen in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-11-2015, 06:51 AM
  4. Sumerian Language Project
    By Erik in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-21-2015, 12:22 AM
  5. Help Solve My Riddle Re: These Scottish Surnames
    By LarryMc in forum R1b General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-23-2015, 04:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •