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Thread: Misc I1 and I2 stuff from R1b threads

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    Misc I1 and I2 stuff from R1b threads

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think its great that David has a provided a little symbol of a bearded man to warn you of a crazy western refugia comment on his Eurogenes comments page. Very thoughtful :0)
    Genetiker is still taking on all comers!
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/
    The La Braña 2 sample is from one of two skeletons found in the La Braña-Arintero cave in the province of León in northwestern Spain. The La Braña 2 skeleton was dated to 7960–7750 BP, which is about the same as the dating for the La Braña 1 skeleton at 7940–7690 BP. La Braña 2 was autosomally similar to La Braña 1.

    The calls show that La Braña 2 belonged to Y haplogroup C1(xC1a1). La Braña 1 and La Braña 2 both belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup U5b2c1, and it’s safe to assume that La Braña 2 belonged to the same C1a2-V20 Y haplogroup that La Braña 1 did.
    ...
    The Y-SNP calls for KO1 show that he belonged to Y haplogroup pre-I2a1a2a1-L1287. This is the same Y haplogroup that was found in one of the hunter-gatherer samples from Motala, Sweden dated to around 6000 BC...

    Stora Förvar 11, a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer who lived on the small Swedish island of Stora Karlsö 7,500 years ago, belonged to haplogroup I1 or pre-I1. This is the earliest occurrence of I1 or pre-I1 that has ever been found.

    The Stora Förvar 11 finding makes it clear that anyone who concluded on the basis of the five Motala samples (which were I2) that I1 was absent in Mesolithic Scandinavia would have been foolish in doing so, especially in light of the fact that I1 is the predominant Y haplogroup in Scandinavia. And yet David Reich, David Anthony, Eske Willerslev, Greg Cochran, David “Davidski” Wesolowski, J. Maciamo Hay, and countless [] blog and forum commenters have come to the same kind of [] conclusion in deciding that R1b was absent in Mesolithic Western Europe, based on only two Mesolithic Western European samples...

    The pattern that is beginning to emerge is that Y haplogroups were present during the Mesolithic in the same places where the highest frequencies of those haplogroups are found today. The 7,500-year-old hunter-gatherer sample from Karelia, Russia belonged to R1a-M459, and the highest frequencies of R1a-M459 are found today in Northeastern Europe. The 7,500-year-old hunter-gatherer sample from Samara, Russia belonged to pre-R1b-M478, and the highest frequencies of R1b-M478 in Europe today are found in Northeastern Europe. And now we have the 7,500-year-old Stora Förvar 11 sample that belonged to I1 or pre-I1, from the same area where the highest frequencies of I1 are found today.
    ...
    The reality, of course, is that R1b-M269 originated in Western Europe in the descendants of the western Gravettians during the Paleolithic, and the highest frequencies of R1b-M269 have been found in Western Europe ever since.
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Genetiker is still taking on all comers!
    . . .
    But not with anything that is even remotely persuasive.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Genetiker is still taking on all comers!
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/
    7 positive and 10 negative of 17 calls for I1. The ancestor of all modern I1 probably lived after this guy and was only very distantly related to him.

    Of course he is correct that you can't say something was absent on the basis of a few aDNA samples. At best, if you have many samples, you can say it wasn't common.

    Unless our dating of everything is wildly wrong, the expansion of both modern I1 and western European R1b happened long after the Paleolithic and his argument is a complete non sequitur. This finding does absolutely nothing to support him.

    PS The Transdanubian LBK guy with I1 is undated and probably more-or-less contemporary to the Swedish I1, so it is not really correct to say it is the earliest I1 either.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 08-28-2015 at 11:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Unless our dating of everything is wildly wrong, the expansion of both modern I1 and western European R1b happened long after the Paleolithic and his argument is a complete non sequitur.
    YFull estimates that I1 diverged from I2 27,500 years ago, but began to expand only 4700 years ago. This means that exactly one (pre-)I1 lineage survived across the intervening 22,800 years. I don't see how we will ever know where that one lineage sojourned across so many millennia. If, just for example, we find a 20,000-year-old pre-I1 in Spain, and a 10,000-year-old pre-I1 in the Caucasus, we cannot assume that the one lineage that survived until today ever lived in either of those places. Who knows how many pre-I1 lineages went extinct, and where they might have lived and died?
    Last edited by lgmayka; 08-29-2015 at 02:34 AM.

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    Misc I1 and I2 stuff from R1b threads

    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    YFull estimates that I1 diverged from I2 27,500 years ago, but began to expand only 4700 years ago. This means that exactly one (pre-)I1 lineage survived across the intervening 22,800 years. I don't see how we will ever know where that one lineage sojourned across so many millennia. If, just for example, we find a 20,000-year-old pre-I1 in Spain, and a 10,000-year-old pre-I1 in the Caucasus, we cannot assume that the one lineage that survived until today ever lived in either of those places. Who knows how many pre-I1 lineages went extinct, and where they might have lived and died?
    very true. But we can use comparative data from autosomes and archaeology to conclude it was most probably from the Carpathian basin.

    [sorry slightly off topic, but might be related to similar series of events which brought R1b north also]
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-29-2015 at 12:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Just noticed the user was banned, but I think I should post this anyway:



    The concept of Balto-Slavic isn't accepted among all "indoeuropeanists" either, heck the same counts for Proto-Baltic as well... Are you suggesting we postpone all discussion of this "concept" because it isn't accepted by all the linguists specialised in IE studies? Again, this is another logical fallacy, historical linguistics isn't supposed to be democratic, if we were basing our approach on majority views we'd still be living in a world where "Hamitic" is a valid...
    But I think the only people opposed to Balto-Slavic were some Baltic nationalists, like the crackpot H Meyer. On the other hand, Italo-Celtic is still more controversial. Last I read on it, eg Fortson, it's deemed to lack unequivocal proof.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-29-2015 at 07:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    YFull estimates that I1 diverged from I2 27,500 years ago, but began to expand only 4700 years ago. This means that exactly one (pre-)I1 lineage survived across the intervening 22,800 years. I don't see how we will ever know where that one lineage sojourned across so many millennia. If, just for example, we find a 20,000-year-old pre-I1 in Spain, and a 10,000-year-old pre-I1 in the Caucasus, we cannot assume that the one lineage that survived until today ever lived in either of those places. Who knows how many pre-I1 lineages went extinct, and where they might have lived and died?
    What do you think about Transdanubian LBK sample of I1 named BAB5 from Balatonszemes-Bagódomb in Hungary? In my opinion that specific (pre-)I1 was originally a European hunter-gatherer lineage which was assimilated by LBK farmers. Then from LBK culture it got to Lengyel culture, and from Lengyel to TRB culture (Funnelbeaker). It experienced a founder effect, perhaps in the northern group of Funnelbeaker. This is why we have such a high frequency of I1 in Scandinavia. This lineage, among others, could also be responsible for spreading the lactase persistence mutation, as it turns out that the northern group of TRB farmers in southern Sweden were highly skilled in dairy farming, in cattle breeding and calving ca. 6000 ybp:

    http://www.archaeology.org/news/3613...-sophisticated

    http://sciencenordic.com/first-scand...ced-we-thought

    ALMHOV, SWEDEN—Researchers studying cow teeth from southern Sweden dating to around 4000 B.C. have found evidence that early farmers there knew more about livestock husbandry than previously thought. By analyzing the oxygen isotopes in the teeth, the team found that cows were born over the course of a year, not just one season, indicating that the Neolithic farmers could control when calves were born. “It’s very interesting that the farmers of the period were able to manipulate the calving seasons, so all the calves did not come in the spring,” Durham University's Kurt Gron told ScienceNordic. “This is very hard to do, and would not have taken place if the farmers had not intended to do it.” By controlling the calving season, the farmers had access to milk year round, which suggests to some archaeologists that the farmers were so sophisticated that they were probably immigrants from Central Europe where such livestock practices were already established. To read about the technology used by people around this time in Europe, go to "Neolithic Toolkit."
    At least 30% of vocabulary in PGmc was of Non-IE origin. Perhaps from those TRB farmers.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-29-2015 at 11:57 PM.

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    Mikewww, just one more thing concerning I1:

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias
    PS The Transdanubian LBK guy with I1 is undated and probably more-or-less contemporary to the Swedish I1, so it is not really correct to say it is the earliest I1 either.
    The Transdanubian LBK guy with I1 is dated, AFAIK. He lived around 7000-7500 years ago. Even if he is undated, he couldn't be contemporary with Swedish I1 (3500 - 3100 years ago) because LBK was long gone by that time. LBK was a Neolithic Non-IE culture. It participated in formation of Lengyel, and northern groups of Lengyel then participated in formation of TRB - which was a farming (Neolithic) culture, but with evidence of assimilation of Mesolithic hunters*. So either that particular lineage of I1 got to TRB from LBK via Lengyel (as the oldest sample of I1 is from Transdanubian LBK), or was assimilated directly by TRB.

    Now that they have found evidence of diary farming in southern Sweden from 4000 BC, I'm fairly sure that those were most certainly I1 haplogroup farmers of the northern group of TRB culture.

    *Citation:

    "(...) The Funnelbeaker culture, short TRB (...) was an archaeological culture in north-central Europe. It developed as a technological merger of local neolithic and mesolithic [hunter] techno-complexes between the lower Elbe and middle Vistula rivers, introducing farming and husbandry as a major source of food to the pottery-using hunter-gatherers north of this line. (...)"

    In terms of mtDNA, TRB farmers were a blend of Near Eastern and European-Mesolithic lineages.

    Read also about very considerable Non-Indo-European substrate assimilated into Proto-Germanic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...pean_influence

    The non-Indo-European substrate hypothesis attempts to explain the anomalous features of proto-Germanic as a result of creolization between an Indo-European and a non-Indo-European language. Germanicist John A. Hawkins sets forth the arguments for a Germanic substrate. Hawkins argues that the proto-Germans encountered a non-Indo-European speaking people and borrowed many features from their language. He hypothesizes that the first sound shift of Grimm's Law was the result of non-native speakers attempting to pronounce Indo-European sounds, and that they resorted to the closest sounds in their own language in their attempt to pronounce them.
    At least 30% of Proto-Germanic vocabulary was of Non-Indo-European origin.

    Most likely that came from TRB farmers, since now we know that Battle Axe* was an IE culture.

    *Battle Axe = another name for Corded Ware, especially its Scandinavian branch.

    =========================

    Northern range of farmers ca. 4500 BC (6500 years ago) and first farmers in Sweden - 4000 BC:
    (implying that migrating farmers pushed into Scandinavia during those 500 years in-between):



    Map based on these sources:

    http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...6.figures-only

    http://www.archaeology.org/news/3613...-sophisticated

    http://sciencenordic.com/first-scand...ced-we-thought

    =========================

    As for Bell Beaker influence in Scandinavia on pre-PGmc (early Proto-Germanic):

    IMO speakers of pre-PGmc language evolved in Scandinavia, primarily from the mixture of three groups, which came to Scandinavia as distinct immigrant waves: 1) people of the northern group of TRB (Funnelbeaker) culture, who were Neolithic agriculturalists (Non-IE substrate); 2) people of Corded Ware culture, which was Indo-European; and 3) people of Bell Beaker culture, also Indo-European.

    Phonetically and grammatically Proto-Germanic (PGmc) was most closely related to Proto-Balto-Slavic, leading to the conclusion that the main carriers of pre-PGmc were probably Corded Ware people, and that it evolved from Balto-Slavo-Germanic (this is the mainstream hypothesis, AFAIK).

    However - lexically PGmc was most closely related to both Proto-Italo-Celtic and Proto-Balto-Slavic, but similarities with Balto-Slavic are considered to be cognates (i.e. inherited from an earlier common origin), while similarities with Proto-It-CL are considered to be loanwords, albeit mostly archaic ones (probably from times of pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic phase, so those loanwords were inherited early on).

    About 30% or more of PGmc vocabulary is actually Non-IE, picked up from those TRB farmers.

    In archaeological terms there was considerable influence of Hallstatt culture (Celts) on Nordic Bronze Age, which led to emergence of Jastorf culture. And later there was also considerable influence of La-Tene culture (Celts) on Jastorf culture, which lead to latenization of the latter (here Latenization = an archaeological term referring to the diffusion of the Celtic material culture called after the Swiss site of La Tène).

    These archaic loanwords from pre-Proto-It-CL could be from earlier times, from Beaker people.

    =============
    =============

    ^ Discussion about those Early Scandinavian farmers from ca. 4000 BC on Eupedia:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Sweden-4000-BC
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-30-2015 at 01:10 AM.

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    Misc I1 and I2 stuff from R1b threads

    I'm starting this up as a collector for off-topic stuff in R1b threads.

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    Thanks Mikewww. Posts #751, #752, #758 and #759 should also be moved to that new thread.

    If not, then let's just clarify (in response to #758) that I1 from Hungary is dated, to 7600-6900 years ago:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/09...-of-early.html

    We are talking about sample named BAB5 from Balatonszemes-Bagódomb - site number 8 (5600-4900 BC):

    MAP showing location of this site - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4H5Wq69cUN.../s1600/map.png

    So this I1 from LBK is around 4000 years older than two Scandinavian Nordic Bronze Age samples of I1.

    Check also:

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-10/1413070756

    (...) However, evidence emerged (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2014) from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary that haplogroup I1 was in fact present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. (...)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-30-2015 at 01:20 PM.

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