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Thread: Irish DNA Atlas, Preliminary Results

  1. #611
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    There is also this PCA which I believe is a photo taken from an IDA talk. The colours aren't that clear but you can just make out that the English are shifted towards Germany, whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish are further away from Germany as we should expect from history.

    Hopefully the final IDA paper will provide a good quality European PCA.

    PCA.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    There is also this PCA which I believe is a photo taken from an IDA talk. The colours aren't that clear but you can just make out that the English are shifted towards Germany, whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish are further away from Germany as we should expect from history.

    Hopefully the final IDA paper will provide a good quality European PCA.

    PCA.jpg
    I wish I could make out those colours more distinctly
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English 28.12%, East German or Eastern European 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Welsh 3.125%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

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  5. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I wish I could make out those colours more distinctly
    From what I can see on the right hand side:
    - top right, green = Ireland
    - just below that is Wales
    - below that Scotland & Orkney(?)
    - England (sort of a subtle grey white)
    - Germany (turquoise), to the lower right of Germany is Norway

    To the left of the Germany-England-Scotland-Wales-Ireland band is France. To the left of France is a mixture of Italy and Spain, with Spain seeming to plot above (yet still sort of within?) the Italy swathe.
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-13-2017 at 09:52 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-Z140 [Big Y: PENDING] (Scotland)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2 (Ireland), R-L21 x2 (Ireland & Scotland), I-M223 (Ireland), R-S1141 (Scotland), R-U198 & R-U106 (Netherlands), mtHg J1c3 (Ireland)
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    From what I can see on the right hand side:
    - top right, green = Ireland
    - just below that is Wales
    - below that Scotland & Orkney(?)
    - England (sort of a subtle grey white)
    - Germany (turquoise), to the lower right of Germany is Norway

    To the left of the Germany-England-Scotland-Wales-Ireland band is France. To the left of France is a mixture of Italy and Spain, with Spain seeming to plot above (yet still sort of within?) the Italy swathe.
    Interesting how close Orkney and Scotland are on this PCA. In the POBI project, Orkney was very distinct from rest of UK but it just goes to show how a PCA chart can differ, depending on which populations you use and the individual samples that are used. I think this chart uses POBI data but I am not sure. Hopefully final IDA paper will shed more light on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    Interesting how close Orkney and Scotland are on this PCA. In the POBI project, Orkney was very distinct from rest of UK but it just goes to show how a PCA chart can differ, depending on which populations you use and the individual samples that are used. I think this chart uses POBI data but I am not sure. Hopefully final IDA paper will shed more light on this.
    It's really interesting that it goes against the findings of the POBI but perhaps those findings weren't perfect. I had a conversation with KevinDuffy who was of the opinion that the Welsh were actually genetically closer to the Irish than the Lowland Scots due to their cultural identification as Celts, whereas many Lowland Scots see themselves as British or non-Celtic. I showed the Irish Traveller PCA and the POBI info to make the case that the Welsh are (Insularly speaking) a genetically distinct group, like the Orcadians, and are actually closer to the English than the Irish and Scots.. but wouldn't that be funny if this comes out to show his theory as correct... the Welsh being closer to the Irish and that feeling of Celticness or identity actually being a factor in the genetic situation? I guess we'll have to wait and see!
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English 28.12%, East German or Eastern European 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Welsh 3.125%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

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  11. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    It's really interesting that it goes against the findings of the POBI but perhaps those findings weren't perfect. I had a conversation with KevinDuffy who was of the opinion that the Welsh were actually genetically closer to the Irish than the Lowland Scots due to their cultural identification as Celts, whereas many Lowland Scots see themselves as British or non-Celtic. I showed the Irish Traveller PCA and the POBI info to make the case that the Welsh are (Insularly speaking) a genetically distinct group, like the Orcadians, and are actually closer to the English than the Irish and Scots.. but wouldn't that be funny if this comes out to show his theory as correct... the Welsh being closer to the Irish and that feeling of Celticness or identity actually being a factor in the genetic situation? I guess we'll have to wait and see!
    Yes, I think we'll have to wait and see. Ideally I would love to see a Welsh DNA Atlas type study to compare to the Irish one.

    As I understand it, POBI and Irish travellers paper both used fineStructure analysis for their PCAs which is a method used to detect fine-scale genetic structure in a population such as UK/Ireland where population structure is actually very limited. fineStructure is probably able to tease out subtle differences, such as the Welsh and Irish Travellers likely experiencing some sort of genetic drift.

    I might be wrong but I think the European PCA uses a different analysis, but still interesting as it does show that within a European context, the Celtic fringe areas are very similar to each other.
    Last edited by avalon; 09-14-2017 at 07:36 PM.

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  13. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    Yes, I think we'll have to wait and see. Ideally I would love to see a Welsh DNA Atlas type study to compare to the Irish one.
    What is it about the POBI Welsh results that make them unsuitable in your eyes?
    Not enough numbers?
    Not rooted as firmly as the Irish which went back one generation further than POBI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    It's really interesting that it goes against the findings of the POBI but perhaps those findings weren't perfect. I had a conversation with KevinDuffy who was of the opinion that the Welsh were actually genetically closer to the Irish than the Lowland Scots due to their cultural identification as Celts, whereas many Lowland Scots see themselves as British or non-Celtic. I showed the Irish Traveller PCA and the POBI info to make the case that the Welsh are (Insularly speaking) a genetically distinct group, like the Orcadians, and are actually closer to the English than the Irish and Scots.. but wouldn't that be funny if this comes out to show his theory as correct... the Welsh being closer to the Irish and that feeling of Celticness or identity actually being a factor in the genetic situation? I guess we'll have to wait and see!
    It is my belief that the Scots are generally closer to the English than to the Irish, so a lot of Irish who appear Scottish-like may be people who have a lot of English ancestry in the right amount to make them plot with genetically intermediate Scots. Not all (or even most) of Scotland was Gaelic speaking!

  15. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    Yes, I think we'll have to wait and see. Ideally I would love to see a Welsh DNA Atlas type study to compare to the Irish one.

    As I understand it, POBI and Irish travellers paper both used fineStructure analysis for their PCAs which is a method used to detect fine-scale genetic structure in a population such as UK/Ireland where population structure is actually very limited. fineStructure is probably able to tease out subtle differences, such as the Welsh and Irish Travellers likely experiencing some sort of genetic drift.

    I might be wrong but I think the European PCA uses a different analysis, but still interesting as it does show that within a European context, the Celtic fringe areas are very similar to each other.
    I think historically the northern part of Ireland and the northwest will definitely be closer to Scots. Even looking at things like ydna the Irish and Scots are closer e.g. M222 also show more a connection between the Irish and Scots. In my brother's subclade under M222 it is shared with Irish and Scottish men.

    Looking at the results of something like LivingDNA as well shows more Scottish regions for Irish testers than Welsh and of course there is the shared language to consider.

    Possibly the more southern areas might have more a pull to Wales e.g. Cambro-Normans. Can't wait for more results to be released.

    Just adding that these populations are all quite close to each other anyway.
    Last edited by Jessie; 09-15-2017 at 04:05 AM.

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