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Thread: Irish DNA Atlas, Preliminary Results

  1. #691
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    Y-dna and autosomal do not always correlate.

    You can lose the entire y-dna or mtdna trail of an invading group. To prove this I am going to use New World groups because I do not know how this would work for Ireland but try to follow along.

    The Dominican population is largely European on the paternal side, and African on its maternal side. Pretend that Irish was settled en masse by men from the Dominican Republic and mixed. You'd end up with Irish with large amounts of SSA DNA but no trace of it in their haplogroups.

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  3. #692
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    It's hardly surprising that Doyle though is actual Gaelic origin. The idea that it was a 'Norse surname' showed over-literalism when it came to translation. After all the word Dubhghall became a personal name, which is anglisced as Dugall. One of earliest references I can see of it been used as a personla name is the following in the Annals of Ulster:

    U914.3

    Niall son of Aed made an expedition into Dál Araidi in the month of June. Loingsech grandson of Lethlabar, king of Dál Araidi, came upon him at Fregabal and was defeated, and left behind on his retreat Flathruae grandson of Lethlabar, his kinsman. Aed son of Eochucán, king of the Province, and Loingsech, king of Dál Araidi, met them again at Carn Éirenn and were defeated. Cerrán son of Colman, chief of Cenél Maelchi, and the son of Allacán son of Laíchthechán, and others, were left behind. Aed, however, returning from the flight with a very few, and fiercely resisting during the flight, wiped out some of Niall's soldiers. His son Dubgall was wounded and escaped.
    ...
    U925.1
    Dubgall son of Aed, king of Ulaid, was killed by his own people.
    ..
    U980.5
    Dubgall son of Donnchad, heir designate of Ailech, was killed by his own kinsman, i.e. Muiredach son of Flann. Muiredach son of Flann was beheaded by his own sept before a full month had passed.
    These are high prestige individuals bearing it as a first name in the 10th century.
    (R1b-DF41+)
    (MtDNA: U4d3)

    How to pronounce my username (modern Irish):
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  5. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Hard to say about where the cluster is but this is a map of where the Vikings had settlements.

    Attachment 18877

    It might not be complete though because I know there was a Viking settlement at Annagassan Co. Louth.

    http://www.linnduachaill.ie/news/

    There was also a Viking longphort at Knoxspark in Co Sligo and they found over 200 Viking graves there.

    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/...-27568729.html

    They were also present on Lough Ree on the River Shannon, Ireland, separating Counties Longford and Westmeath (east) from County Roscommon (west).

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/learni...h-ree/vikings/

    Because of Ireland's river systems they could have been anywhere.

    Just adding that with the PoBI they had trouble picking up Danish Viking activity apparently because of the similarity to the Anglo-Saxons.

    Hopefully we will get a lot more information next month.
    Thanks Jessie for the interesting maps and links. I didn't know there was a Viking settlement in Sligo, interesting! To anyone who cares to answer this, is it possible that since Danish DNA is probably so similar to Anglo-Saxon DNA, that there could be a lot more Viking DNA in Ireland than is thought, because Danish Viking DNA probably can't be picked out from the DNA of the English very easily? However, it seems like most of the Vikings in Ireland were thought to be Norwegian.

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  7. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    JUST A GUESS. Maybe be wrong, but it might be either somewhere in the west or southeast. Places like Limerick, Galway, or Waterford/Wexford. My guess would be the southeast coast.
    Thanks. I had thought it might be where known areas of Viking settlement were. One place I thought of was Dublin and the area near it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Nothing new to report from ISHG 2017.

    Short 10 m introduction to the project.

    Cohort=192
    Four generations of Irish Ancestry
    8 GP 50 KM
    In combination with POBI
    POBI Cohort=2,039
    10 distinct geographic genetic clusters
    3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)
    7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)
    Remarkably homogenous genetic structure
    European Cohort=6,760
    Ancient Irish Genomes=2
    3 matching Irish clusters within Europe
    NW France cluster
    Norwegian cluster
    Ancient Irish Genomes match Gaelic clusters
    Admixture events
    Plantations of Ulster
    Norse - Viking settlement

    Next presentation at GGI2017, Sunday Oct 22, 14:00.

    Very interesting keynote presentation from Professor Agnar Helgason on Icelandic DNA.

    I understand he is preparing an update on his previous papers on the subject.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1000343
    http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v1...l/nrg3946.html
    Heber, I thank you and I'm grateful to you for taking the notes and reporting them to us. Would you mind explaining please, what you meant by this,
    "3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)"?

    What do you mean "shared"? Out of 10 geographic genetic clusters for Ireland/N. Ireland, 7 Gaelic Irish ones are in Ireland. However, that seems to imply the only genetic clusters in N. Ireland are the British/Irish clusters! So, I must be missing something somewhere. The POBI map showed the Gaelic Northern Irish/Western Scottish Highlander cluster with green triangles, in Northern Ireland and Western Scotland if I remember right.

    The only other thing I can figure out is if by "shared" you mean that the British/Irish clusters share autosomal DNA with the Gaelic Irish of Northern Ireland.
    Last edited by fridurich; 09-21-2017 at 01:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fridurich View Post

    What do you mean "shared"? Out of 10 geographic genetic clusters for Ireland/N. Ireland, 7 Gaelic Irish ones are in Ireland.
    They could just be calling all the clusters in Ireland proper "Gaelic Irish" regardless of who they plot with.

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  12. #697
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    Lots of interesting presentations at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2017 including
    Icelandic Roots and Identities - Professor Gilsi Pallsson
    The Genetics of the Transatlantic Slave Trade - Professor Hannes Schroeder
    Ancient DNA and Genetic History of Europeans Dr. Eppie Jones
    Recent Findings in Ancient Irish DNA - Professor Dan Bradley
    Genomic Insights into the History of Irish Travellers . Dr. Gianpiero Cavalerri
    The Irish DNA Atlas - Dr Ed Gilbert
    along with many lectures on Family Trees, Autosomal, Y and mtDNA and Regional Irish DNA.

    http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/search/label/GGI2017

    I have organised a day out for speakers and ISOGG volunteers on Monday 23rd including a short overview of two labs:
    http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/2017/09/i...-out-2017.html
    Smurfit Ancient DNA - TCD
    Pinhasi Lab - UCD

    as well as
    Book of Kells
    Ancient Irish Manuscripts
    Irish Folklore Commission
    Insight Center for Data Analytics
    Pinhasi Ancient DNA - UCD
    Genomics Medicine Ireland
    Last edited by Heber; 10-07-2017 at 10:11 AM.
    Gerard Corcoran
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  14. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Lots of interesting presentations at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2017 including
    Icelandic Roots and Identities - Professor Gilsi Pallsson
    The Genetics of the Transatlantic Slave Trade - Professor Hannes Schroeder
    Ancient DNA and Genetic History of Europeans Dr. Eppie Jones
    Recent Findings in Ancient Irish DNA - Professor Dan Bradley
    Genomic Insights into the History of Irish Travellers . Dr. Gianpiero Cavalerri
    The Irish DNA Atlas - Dr Ed Gilbert
    along with many lectures on Family Trees, Autosomal, Y and mtDNA and Regional Irish DNA.

    http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/search/label/GGI2017

    I have organised a day out for speakers and ISOGG volunteers on Monday 23rd including a short overview of two labs:
    http://ggi2013.blogspot.ie/2017/09/i...-out-2017.html
    Smurfit Ancient DNA - TCD
    Pinhasi Lab - UCD

    as well as
    Book of Kells
    Ancient Irish Manuscripts
    Irish Folklore Commission
    Insight Center for Data Analytics
    Pinhasi Ancient DNA - UCD
    Genomics Medicine Ireland
    Thanks Heber! It all sounds very interesting including the visits to the DNA labs, ancient Irish manuscripts etc.

    Now that you post here, what did you mean in an earlier posted about a conference you went to that mentioned the results of the Irish DNA Atlas project. Out of 10 distinct geographic genetic clusters, you mentioned "7 Gaelic/Irish ancestry (Ireland)", and "3 shared British/Irish clusters (N.Ireland)". To me, this seems to be saying all of the Gaelic Irish clusters are in Ireland, and that there are no Gaelic Irish clusters in N. Ireland, but instead N. Ireland has only the 3 shared British/Irish (descended from the Planters I assume) clusters.

    What do you mean by "shared"?

    Where am I missing what you mean? Please clarify. Many Thanks!

    Kind Regards,
    Fred

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    Fred,
    The slides were not clear.
    I am assuming these are shared Scots / Irish including Planter and Dal Riatha +Another.
    It was a 10 minute presentation with no questions.
    GGI2017 will be 60 minutes including questions.
    I will try to clarify in at GGI2017.
    Gerard Corcoran
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  17. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Fred,
    The slides were not clear.
    I am assuming these are shared Scots / Irish including Planter and Dal Riatha +Another.
    It was a 10 minute presentation with no questions.
    GGI2017 will be 60 minutes including questions.
    I will try to clarify in at GGI2017.
    Thanks Gerard. I appreciate you wanting to get clarification on the shared British/Irish clusters. Hopefully, the presenters will make very clear what they are saying regarding all the Irish DNA Atlas material, leaving no room for ambiguity or dispute about what is meant, unless of course, it is something they just aren't sure about.

    King Regards,
    Fred

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