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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I really don't get this obsession with linking Slavs or other R1a-dominated IEs with CT. CT was a Neolithic farmer
    Im not very partial towards the idea, it just looks like a possibility worth mentioning. Im not even saying r1a was in the CT but never the less they could have been a vehicle for language transfer and a degree of manpower (we both appear to agree on this).

    If it turns out that CT was as neolithic as you say and mostly lacked r1a then the theory becomes less likely. But I don't know that the CT was super neolithic and lacked r1a.

    The other possibility I see, perhaps more plausible is Yamnaya directly interacting with CW and transferring language.





    Proto Balto-Slavs seems to originate from the middle Dnjepr region and late Proto-Slavic originated in the most southern zone of the Proto-Balto-Slavic continuum somewhere in northern Ukraine (Kiev culture).
    just to be clear I'm not saying that the collapsed CT peoples who took on the language of the neighboring yamnaya pooped out Slavic, Baltic, Indo Iranian, etc... What I'm saying is that (maybe) the collapsed CT people took on IE which was to be ancestral to the post Italo-Celtic stuff, and that soon after this acquisition/fusion, differences started to form among their descendants. One variation could be ancestral to balto slavic but not ancestral to iranian. But that doesn't mean that balto slavic itself was one of the variations or that one of the variations would only lead to balto slavic and nothing else.

    Seems to me that the slavic lineage could have went from yamnaya to CT (david explains this) to the dnieper and then finally westward as slavic.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    Jean, were do you think the slavic lineage was between the time of the yamnaya and the time when the slavic lineage moved into poland, and how long do you think that time period was?
    The Middle Dnieper culture seems to represent the region in which Proto-Balto-Slavic developed. The Fatyanovo culture seems to represent those groups who drifted northeast from the Middle Dnieper, developing Proto-Baltic, who would eventually reach the Baltic.

    Map of Copper Age cultures from Anthony 2007. Click to enlarge.

    Map18.jpg

    The Slavs seem to represent the people of the Middle Dnieper culture who chose to stay behind until they exploded out in the Middle Ages. There is a series of related cultures in the middle Dnieper region which eventually becomes the one archaeologists see spreading out in the Migration Period into the areas where Slavic-speakers appear in early records by others, and eventually in their own records.

    Map of the Slavic movements. Click to enlarge.


    Map35.jpg
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-21-2015 at 10:46 AM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    Jean ... Also, do you subscribe to the ringe phylogeny referenced by Anthony? If so, where and when do you think the balto slavic lineage separated from the indo iranian lineage?
    This is the Ringe tree of Indo-European, with chronology:

    RingeIEchron.JPG

    This is my version for Ancestral Journeys:

    Diagram7.JPG

    As you will see, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian are regarded as separate branches of the IE tree. They share certain features. You could see that as due to the fact that they were the last branches to leave PIE, which had continued to develop. Or you could see it as a function of their development in close contact - whatever makes more sense to you. Perhaps a linguist will come along and explain the matter better, if we are lucky.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-21-2015 at 11:10 AM.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Among the reviews, one gives some hint of the author's ultimate conclusion:
    ---
    The interesting picture that emerges is of closely related Slavonic groups (linguistic evidence) probably originating in the Southern Polish, Czech, Carpathian area, cooperating with invading Huns from the East, and moving into land abandoned by the movement of earlier Germanic tribes (who in turn had moved to occupy the collapsing Western Roman Empire).
    Some features of that review should be ignored. Barford goes for the accepted homeland of the Slavs in Ukraine. The reviewer also seems to have misunderstood the role of the Huns. The Amazon description of the book is more accurate.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Barford goes for the accepted homeland of the Slavs in Ukraine.
    Then I just threw away my money on an obsolete book, because Big Y DNA results so far strongly point toward southern and/or eastern Poland as the primary source of the yDNA expansion.

    I don't intend to get into a debate about this right now. As Big Y results continue to accumulate, it will eventually become obvious even to the most stubborn observers.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 07-21-2015 at 02:43 PM.

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Then I just threw away my money on an obsolete book, because Big Y DNA results so far strongly point toward southern Poland and the Carpathians instead.
    The results from modern DNA are impressively close to the conclusions from archaeological and place-name evidence, but modern DNA cannot be a perfect and exact substitute for ancient DNA. People have moved around since 500 AD. I realise that modern state boundaries mean a lot to us today. But bear in mind that Poland did not exist in 500 AD. And its boundaries have moved around a lot since its creation. The generally accepted homeland of the Slavs fell within the Crown possessions of the King of Poland in 1619. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_...gdom_of_Poland . Modern day Southern Poland certainly seems to have become Slavic at an early stage.

    So no need to fight with Belarus and Ukraine over this, surely?
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-21-2015 at 12:47 PM.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    This entire post seems wrong.

    -Why invoke CT at all? Some gene flow into the steppe/forest steppe sure. But for all we know the autosomal signature of R1a was already present by 7000-4000 BC and is something like 80% Dnieper-Donets and 20% CT. It is clear the expansion of R1a into Central Asia is related to the invention of chariots and the creation of weaponry/metal working unheard of in the Yamanya period. And the most common lineage in Andronovo/Central Asian IE speakers (mt T) was already common in Dnieper Donets.

    -Yamnaya was never supposed to be early PIE. I have seen PIE dated to 4500 BC-4000 BC. I doubt it is even late PIE. PIE/Pre-PIE is better placed in Late Samara (R1b-M73+?), Sredny Stog (R1b-L23*?) and Dnieper Donets II/III (R1a-Z2645?). You are right that Yamnaya being the early source of IE and Indo-Europeanizing R1a is only your opinion. One that is wrong and the sort of biased, imaginary nonsense that is best restricted to a site like Eupedia.

    -Yamnaya looks Z2103 dominant. So in all likelhood Michal is right and Yamnaya-Afanasievo represents the speakers of the Balkan group of languages. Which is actually in line with the theories by numerous Finnish and Russian archeologists that Yamnaya represented the speakers of Greco(Balkan group)-Aryan(Indo-Iranian) with the forest steppe Abashevo group representing Indo-Iranian speakers as well. Only thing they were wrong on was that Indo-Iranian was restricted to the forest steppe rather than being split up between the forest steppe and Volga-Ural steppe (some Poltavka samples will obviously confirm this one way or the other).

    -It is unlikely R1b-L51 will be found in Yamnaya imo. But even if it is are you suggesting that Italo-Celtic-Germanic shared a node with the Balkan group so late in history. Unlikely. You are essentially suggesting there was no divergence between the Balkan group, the groups that led to Italo-Celtic and Germanic, Tocharian and three apparently Indo-Europeanized R1a groups (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Xiahhoe and possibly five or six if R1a-CTS4385, R1a-Z282-A and R1a-Z284 also spoke some extinct IE languages) between 3500-2800 BC. Unlikely. You might find some agreement with Jean here but I'll go with the linguists and archeologists who split up Iranian and Indo-Aryan by 2800-2500 BC.

    -Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic do not make a node. Never have, never will.I am sure some satemization arguments will follow. But that is rejected by most linguists. And it is clear that Satemization behaves differently in Indo-Iranian vs Slavic vs Baltic which confirms the areal nature of this feature that R1b guys are fixated on.

    -I think R1b is an EHG marker but we wil likely need some confirmation now that we know the Samara R1b EHG was M73+(although to be fair R1a will need some confirmation too given the Karelia guy belongs to R1a-M459). Michal's SE Caspian origin of R1b-M269 (in line with the distribution of M269(xL23) in Western Central Asia?) might be well and alive.
    I completely missed the finding that the Samara EHG was M73 - can someone link to anything on this? I have always taken an interest in M73 as it is the closest relative to M269 and has an interesting contrasting distribution.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I completely missed the finding that the Samara EHG was M73 - can someone link to anything on this?
    It was not M73+, but had some of the mutations that define that level. So officially it is R1b1a (P297/PF6398, L320), but was heading towards R1b1a1 (M73, M478) rather than R1b1a2 (M269). See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml Sok River, Samara [SVP44/I0124].

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  15. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    This is the Ringe tree of Indo-European, with chronology:

    RingeIEchron.JPG

    This is my version for Ancestral Journeys:

    Diagram7.JPG

    As you will see, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian are regarded as separate branches of the IE tree. They share certain features. You could see that as due to the fact that they were the last branches to leave PIE, which had continued to develop. Or you could see it as a function of their development in close contact - whatever makes more sense to you. Perhaps a linguist will come along and explain the matter better, if we are lucky.
    its the exact same thing except that the main conglomerate from the time anatolian broke away to the time indo iranian broke away is labeled PIE. Im not sure that is feasible but thats ok because I only care about the order.

    I wonder if a tree is the model we should be using.

  16. #30
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    Similarities between Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian are exaggerated. Baltic and Slavic languages are most similar to Germanic languages followed by other European languages. However, Slavic languages have Iranic loan-words and east Slavs share few common deities; this points to the fact that Slavs lived near Iranic speakers during Medieval ages. Most likely in Ukraine . Antes described by Jordanes in 6th century are good candidates to be Slavic and Iranic community.

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