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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #1481
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    If someone wants to try a similar nMonte run, here is the data I used:

     
    , Amerindian,Arabian,Armenian,Basque,Central_African ,Central_Euro,East_African,East_Asian,East_Balkan, East_Central_Asian,East_Central_Euro,East_Med,East ern_Euro,Fennoscandian,French,Iberian,Indo-Chinese,Italian,Malayan,Near_Eastern,North_African ,North_Atlantic,North_Caucasian,North_Sea,Northeas t_African,Oceanian,Omotic,Pygmy,Siberian,South_Asi an,South_Central_Asian,South_Chinese,Volga-Ural,West_African,West_Caucasian,West_Med
    PLN17,0,0,0,0,0,4.35,0,0,3.31,0,21.72,0,9.29,10.75 ,6.79,2.28,0,0,0,0,0,16.49,5.88,19.15,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0
    RISE598,0,0,0,0,0,15.76,0.50,0,0,0,48.96,0,18.24,4 .02,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8.20,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.17,0, 0,2.15
    RISE150,0,0,0,0.70,0,6.73,0,0,4.91,0,5.70,0,9.68,9 .51,8.38,13.65,0,0.21,0,0,0,18.25,4.30,17.99,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    RISE577,0,0,0,2.72,0,1.77,0,0,4.58,0,3.57,0,3.66,9 .21,10.22,14.81,0,5.07,0,0,0,18.45,0,21.42,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4.53
    RISE566,0,0,0,6.47,0,0,0,0,3.74,0,17.30,0,5.06,0,9 .25,14.84,0,0.14,0,0,0.45,9.46,0,29.69,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0.78,0,2.82
    RISE586,0,0,0,2.31,0,6.40,0,0,0,0,12.22,0,0,0,11.6 6,12.59,0,5.48,0,0,0,11.58,0,33.48,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,4.27
    RISE154,0,0,0,7.45,0,6.27,0,0,0,0,14.42,0,0,7.98,9 .22,5.98,0,0,0,0,0,15.09,12.68,19.23,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.68
    IR1,0,0,3.54,1.24,0,0,0,0,3.34,0,8.69,0,11.03,4.83 ,11.55,0.44,0,6.98,0,0,0,14.39,14.01,18.27,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.70
    RISE174,0,0,0,2.40,0,7.31,0,0,0,0,13.38,0,7.41,15. 20,6.33,4.36,0,0,0,0,0,19.35,0,24.26,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0
    RISE276,0,0,0,4.51,0,14.50,0,0,3.64,0,23.75,0,0,11 .12,13.19,2.64,0,0,0,0,0,4.82,0,21.84,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0
    I0803,0,0,0,5.92,0,4.91,0,0,0,0,9.69,0,9.80,8.53,7 .81,11.53,0,0,0,0,0,12.62,0,26.68,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0.46,0,2.04,0
    I0099,0,0,0,0.24,0,3.46,0,0,0.66,0,11.11,0,8.83,3. 57,7.13,13.56,0,6.89,0,0,0,18.89,0,25.59,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I0247,3.00,0,0,0,0,6.26,0,0,0,0,6.12,0,9.16,11.56, 0.75,0,0,0,0,0,0,9.36,15.17,17.19,0,0,0,0,2.57,0,1 6.05,0,2.81,0,0,0
    I1955,0,6.41,12.72,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.42,20.31,0,0,0. 45,0,0,4.22,0,9.28,0,0,16.00,2.42,0,0,0,0,0,0,15.5 7,0,0,0,10.18,0
    BR2,0,0,0,3.95,0,5.53,0,0,6.46,0,11.37,0.88,5.59,8 .15,8.44,12.60,0,16.61,0,0,0,9.14,0,6.46,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,4.82
    BR1,0,0,0,3.63,0,10.14,0,0,4.98,0,18.38,0,6.76,5.1 6,3.40,13.12,0,5.87,0,0,0,7.72,0,15.03,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,5.82
    RISE373,0,0,0,3.58,0,0,0,0,7.50,0,2.48,0,0,0,10.84 ,24.67,0,16.32,0,0,0,11.54,0,10.67,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,12.41
    RISE397,0,0.52,10.68,3.23,0,2.33,0,0,1.95,0,1.49,8 .91,0,0,6.90,8.72,0,17.41,0,1.63,2.69,0,16.09,7.05 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,10.40,0
    RISE374,0,0,0,3.89,0,1.16,0,0,1.25,0,6.07,0,0,0,5. 37,12.47,0,47.87,0,0,0,0.56,0,14.20,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0.90,0,6.24
    RISE412,0,3.04,24.07,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,15.45,0,0,6.5 0,0,0,20.78,0,0,0,0,14.34,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,15 .81,0
    I0047,0,0,0,3.06,0,0,0,0,0.29,0,10.43,0,4.51,8.81, 13.38,0,0,12.69,0,0,0,24.68,0,22.14,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
    I0116,0,0,0,2.45,0,0,0,0,3.00,0,18.17,0,7.97,13.23 ,5.34,14.81,0,0,0,0,0,18.72,1.75,14.21,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0.33,0
    I0164,0,0,0,0,0,5.48,0,0,0,0,13.40,0,5.44,9.70,11. 78,2.71,0,0,0,0,0,23.09,5.92,22.48,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0
    Early Czech Slavs:

     
    RISE568,0,0,0,0,0,24.42,0,0,0,0,32.41,0,24.62,0,0, 2.11,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,16.41,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    RISE569,0,0,0,3.81,0,5.61,0,0,12.10,0,17.69,0,6.80 ,1.04,3.41,3.74,0,6.70,0,0,0,9.16,0,27.47,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.45
    Modern Polish averages:

    http://k36.physical-anthropology.info

     
    , Amerindian,Arabian,Armenian,Basque,Central_African ,Central_Euro,East_African,East_Asian,East_Balkan, East_Central_Asian,East_Central_Euro,East_Med,East ern_Euro,Fennoscandian,French,Iberian,Indo-Chinese,Italian,Malayan,Near_Eastern,North_African ,North_Atlantic,North_Caucasian,North_Sea,Northeas t_African,Oceanian,Omotic,Pygmy,Siberian,South_Asi an,South_Central_Asian,South_Chinese,Volga-Ural,West_African,West_Caucasian,West_Med
    PL_Wielkopolska,0.030,0.000,0.185,0.526,0.000,9.62 3,0.000,0.000,7.530,0.000,22.904,0.000,13.984,11.8 55,3.119,3.958,0.000,3.498,0.000,0.000,0.000,9.247 ,0.645,11.738,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000, 0.000,0.000,0.773,0.000,0.085,0.290
    Pl_Kashubians,0.000,0.000,0.000,1.848,0.000,9.620, 0.000,0.000,3.606,0.000,24.114,0.000,14.464,13.036 ,3.505,4.579,0.000,3.198,0.000,0.000,0.000,8.578,0 .390,12.019,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0. 000,0.000,0.300,0.085,0.614,0.044
    PL_South_Poland,0.077,0.000,0.578,0.994,0.000,8.31 2,0.000,0.000,6.665,0.000,20.438,0.215,15.857,10.4 32,3.854,6.635,0.000,6.196,0.000,0.268,0.022,7.355 ,1.679,8.692,0.000,0.021,0.011,0.000,0.000,0.000,0 .052,0.000,0.901,0.000,0.062,0.671
    PL_Mazovia,0.021,0.044,0.000,1.022,0.000,9.325,0.0 00,0.000,6.503,0.000,26.138,0.009,16.924,11.430,4. 225,4.060,0.000,2.391,0.000,0.000,0.053,6.828,0.49 8,9.365,0.000,0.017,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.016, 0.000,0.884,0.000,0.048,0.194
    PL_mixed,0.041,0.057,0.055,1.347,0.000,8.688,0.000 ,0.000,7.006,0.000,24.312,0.087,17.059,11.047,3.74 5,4.763,0.000,3.402,0.000,0.005,0.000,6.236,0.984, 9.151,0.003,0.014,0.004,0.018,0.000,0.000,0.135,0. 000,1.325,0.000,0.220,0.293
    Pl_north,0.000,0.000,0.006,1.636,0.000,9.642,0.000 ,0.000,5.174,0.000,21.822,0.004,15.418,9.580,3.586 ,4.288,0.000,1.648,0.000,0.000,0.000,10.520,0.454, 14.266,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.362,0 .000,1.352,0.000,0.000,0.234
    PL_SE_Carpathia,0.000,0.000,0.843,1.145,0.000,7.25 5,0.000,0.000,6.445,0.000,20.951,0.181,15.750,11.9 25,2.285,8.521,0.000,5.413,0.000,0.000,0.000,6.141 ,0.783,9.506,0.000,0.000,0.011,0.040,0.000,0.000,0 .008,0.000,1.856,0.000,0.269,0.668
    PL_Upper_Silesia,0.000,0.000,0.635,1.110,0.000,8.1 48,0.000,0.000,6.699,0.000,20.396,0.108,15.927,10. 520,4.665,6.415,0.000,5.477,0.000,0.072,0.089,7.16 2,1.306,9.658,0.000,0.020,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000, 0.059,0.000,0.782,0.000,0.092,0.643
    PL_Sudovia,0.000,0.000,0.000,1.590,0.000,9.273,0.0 00,0.000,5.867,0.000,31.877,0.000,17.640,13.047,0. 310,1.883,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,4.767,0.00 0,11.167,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000 ,0.000,2.577,0.000,0.000,0.000
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-07-2017 at 07:03 PM.

  2. #1482
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    After adding Dutch_Frisian to the Oracle, this is what RISE569 gets in nMonte:

    RISE569

    Poland_North 47.55
    Dutch_Frisian 35.50
    GR_Thrace 6.55
    Albania_South 6.35
    South_Holland 2.50
    Poland_Sudovia 0.70
    Kosovo 0.60
    Holland 0.20
    IT_Marche 0.05

    (...)

    And in nMonte with ancient samples (plus RISE568):

    RISE569

    RISE586 (Czech Unetice) 39.30
    PLN17 (Iwno or Trzciniec) 29.40
    RISE568 (Early Slavic Czech) 12.85
    BR1 (Bronze Age Hungary) 8.85
    RISE374 (Bronze Age Hungary) 7.85
    IR1 (Iron Age Hungary) 1.75

    RISE598 0.00
    RISE150 0.00
    RISE577 0.00
    RISE154 0.00
    RISE174 0.00
    RISE276 0.00
    I0803 0.00
    I0099 0.00
    I0247 0.00
    I1955 0.00
    BR2 0.00
    RISE373 0.00
    RISE397 0.00
    RISE412 0.00
    I0047 0.00
    I0116 0.00
    I0164 0.00

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  4. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here are nMonte results for Polish regional averages:

    So RISE598 from 908-585 BC comes out as the predominant - 1/3 to 1/2 - source of ancestry for Poles (but I will try this again with more samples, including I0575).

    This is where RISE598 lived + cultural situation in the region at that time:



    Sarmatian, Pokrovka [PR3 / I0575], 500-200 BC in Eurogenes K36:

    Population
    Amerindian 1.91
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque -
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 1.64
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian 0.86
    East_Central_Euro 7.71
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 9.91
    Fennoscandian 10.77
    French 5.05
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian -
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 10.02
    North_Caucasian 15.24
    North_Sea 8.63
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian 3.79
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian 19.31
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural 5.17
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med -

     
    I0575,1.91,0,0,0,0,1.64,0,0,0,0.86,7.71,0,9.91,10. 77,5.05,0,0,0,0,0,0,10.02,15.24,8.63,0,0,0,0,3.79, 0,19.31,0,5.17,0,0,0
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-19-2017 at 04:05 AM.

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  6. #1484
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    Adding I0575 changes some regional results. This Sarmatian sample replaces Scythian sample in some cases, but not all. I guess that these Scytho-Sarmatian samples are more or less interchangeable:

    PL_Upper_Silesia:

    RISE598 33.05
    BR2 31.05
    RISE150 28.65
    I0575 6.10 - Sarmatian
    IR1 1.15

    PL_South_Poland:

    BR2 34.30
    RISE598 32.75
    RISE150 25.55
    I0575 7.10 - Sarmatian
    RISE412 0.25
    3DRIF26 0.05

    PL_SE_Carpathia:

    BR2 33.25
    RISE598 31.60
    RISE150 16.75
    I0116 11.15
    I0247 7.15 - Scythian
    3DRIF26 0.10

    PL_Wielkopolska:

    RISE598 33.5
    BR2 21.8
    RISE150 17.9
    RISE174 12.1
    PLN17 10.2
    I0247 4.4 - Scythian

    PL_mixed:

    RISE598 42.9
    RISE150 27.3
    BR2 22.3
    I0575 7.5 - Sarmatian

    PL_Mazovia:

    RISE598 45.30
    RISE150 24.75
    BR2 17.30
    I0575 5.45 - Sarmatian
    PLN17 3.50
    I0116 2.35
    RISE174 1.35

    PL_Kashubians:

    RISE598 36.20
    RISE174 27.20
    BR2 19.75
    RISE150 6.95
    I0116 4.85
    I0247 2.80 - Scythian
    I0575 2.25 - Sarmatian

    PL_North:

    RISE598 36.00
    RISE150 33.20
    RISE174 18.05
    BR2 7.70
    I0247 4.15 - Scythian
    IR1 0.85
    3DRIF26 0.05

    PL_Sudovia:

    RISE598 55.90
    I0116 18.10
    RISE174 12.90
    I0247 9.15 - Scythian
    BR2 3.90
    3DRIF26 0.05

    PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia:

    RISE598 46.70
    BR2 13.65
    I0116 12.55
    PLN17 9.05
    RISE174 8.95
    I0575 7.80 - Sarmatian
    RISE150 1.30
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-19-2017 at 02:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post



    PL_Wielkopolska:

    RISE598 33.5
    BR2 21.8
    RISE150 17.9
    RISE174 12.1
    PLN17 10.2
    I0247 4.4 - Scythian






    PL_Kashubians:

    RISE598 36.20
    RISE174 27.20
    BR2 19.75
    RISE150 6.95
    I0116 4.85
    I0247 2.80 - Scythian
    I0575 2.25 - Sarmatian
    RISE 174 from Oxie, Sweden has an approximate age of 1521 years (http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html). It has a strong presence among the Kashubians and those from Wielkopolska to a lesser degree. Given its relatively recent age , are there any thoughts regarding its autosomal presence in these regions?

  9. #1486
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    M458 + Z280 table based on FTDNA project results...





    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-20-2017 at 08:39 AM.

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    The data contrasting M458 and Z280 is interesting especially looking at the Balkans;
    The Slavic expansion into the Balkans (under Avars and Bulgars) of the early middle ages was one of the major Slavic expansions, and its signature seems clearly Z280; Something also data from Sicily (Saqāliba) suggests;

    Is there any data on the contrast of L260 and L1029 within Polish and Sorbs?

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    Data from Kushniarevich et al (2015) based on large size samples




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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    The data contrasting M458 and Z280 is interesting especially looking at the Balkans;
    The Slavic expansion into the Balkans (under Avars and Bulgars) of the early middle ages was one of the major Slavic expansions, and its signature seems clearly Z280; Something also data from Sicily (Saqāliba) suggests;
    Z280 and M458 indeed had significant share in the Slavic expansion. However, I-YP189, subclade of better known I-CTS10228, had bigger role in the Slavic expansion into the Balkans compared to those two R1a clades. This was discussed numerous times on the forum.
    Regarding South Italian R1a, IMO, considerable part of it could be pre-Slavic.
    Last edited by Bane; 07-06-2017 at 09:32 AM.

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