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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #1251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Are place-name specialists agreed on this? I saw something online suggesting it, but without a source. A Celtic origin seems odd.
    I'll see if I can locate this. It might take a bit of time since my library is in a terrible state. I do remember that I got this info from a book published in Ukraine in the 1980's .Hopefully it's not one of those I lent out to a student or friend and never got back... Speaking of Celtic topo- or hydro- relics in Ukraine, I remember another book published in 1985 about the hydronymy of the Ros' river basin which mentioned two or three little streams with "Celto-Illyrian" names.== As far as Kobryn' is concerned there is still a discussion as to whether the city name (succeeding a village name) came from the river Kobryn'ka (Kobrinka) or the reverse. Archaeologically the city area as of excavations done so far only goes back to the 10th century. But if the primary source is the river then this is no insuperable problem. I don't know if linguists have come up with non-Celtic explanations of the name.== There seems little doubt, BTW, that a Celtic component was indeed a part of the "Bastarnian" push eastward after 300 BCE. There are sufficient historical indicators.

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  3. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Basal lineages of M458* are found in Poland (for example YFull's id:YF01919 POL):

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

    If I am not mistaken, this R1a-M458* is equivalent to the so called Rytel Clan branch.
    Not exactly, this is a sample corresponding to kit 281796, originating from Greater Poland (Kuklinów). When counting the Rytel family as just one lineage, we have four distantly related lineages that form a potential novel subclade under M458 (or cluster M458*-A). Two of those lineages are from Poland (#281796/YF01919 and the Rytel lineage), one is from North Caucasus (Balkaria, #307200) and one is from Serbia (#360908). Intriguingly, we also have another case of M458* who is of Welsh ancestry, though it is not clear whether he belongs to the discussed cluster M458*-A or not (he definitely needs more STRs or Big Y).

    BTW, cluster PF7521*-A (a potential subclade under PF7521 that is more closely related to the major Slavic clades CTS11962 and L260 than to cluster M458*-A) includes 6 FTDNA kits, including 2 from Poland, 2 from Russia and 2 from Turkey/Near East.

    As for cluster PF6155*-A, representing a potential brother clade of M458, it includes 3 people. Two of them seem to originate from NE Poland (with one of them claiming Old Prussian ancestry) and one is of Italian origin (a result of a potential Gothic migration?). Thus, it seems quite likely that the homeland of M458>PF7521 could have been located not far from Old Prussia (thus in Poland, Belarus or Lithuania). IMO, Belarus seems to be the most likely option, but let's wait for the aDNA data from Wielbark, as they should verify the Polish (or North Polish) scenario.

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  5. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Why settle on beliefs when you can move with facts ?
    I wasn't trying to be a smart-Alec here
    Specifically, Slovakia appears to have been still settled by Lombards, or at least a people with very similar culture well into the 6th, possibly 7th century , including downtown Bratislava (& several others). I know some archaeologists have written that Slavs first arrived here in 500 or even 400s, but they need to update their position.
    So, Slavs arrived earlier in Wallachia than Slovakia .
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-18-2016 at 11:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I wasn't trying to be a smart-Alec here
    Specifically, Slovakia appears to have been still settled by Lombards, or at least a people with very similar culture, including downtown Bratislava (several others). I know some archaeologists have written that Slavs first arrived here in 500 or even 400s, but they clealry need to update themselves
    So Slavs arrived earlier in Wallachia than Slovakia .
    The lombards where pushed out of the area you noted and went to Italy...........these aggressors where the Rugii ...........who are the rugii ?


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  7. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The lombards where pushed out of the area you noted and went to Italy...........these aggressors where the Rugii ...........who are the rugii ?
    The Lombards defeated the Rugii, not vice-versa. They were the masters of the middle Danube region, until the Franks came. Obviously not all moved to Pannonia and Italy, and some stayed up north as a rearguard, perhaps
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-18-2016 at 11:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Speaking of Celtic topo- or hydro- relics in Ukraine, I remember another book published in 1985 about the hydronymy of the Ros' river basin which mentioned two or three little streams with "Celto-Illyrian" names.
    I have found this paper by Brendan Mac Gonagle, Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region. In: Материалы по Археологии и Истории Античного и Средневекового Крыма Археология, история, нумизматика, сфрагистика иэпиграфика. (Moscow State University) Севастополь Тюмень Нижневартовск 2015. pp. 50-58.) https://www.academia.edu/24918722/Ce..._Pontic_Region

    The article provides an overview of the available linguistic, numismatic and archaeological evidence pertaining to the expansion of the La Tene culture into the area of modern Ukraine and the North Pontic region from the 3rd century BC onwards. A distinction is observed between the situation in western Ukraine where the process of Celtic migration — colonization is reflected in the archaeological evidence, and further east where the presence of Celtic “warrior bands” — mercenary groups have been identified. The testimony in ancient sources to the emergence of mixed Celto-Scythian populations in this area is also considered.
    But is this author over-enthusiastic? He seems to find Celts all over the place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I have found this paper by Brendan Mac Gonagle, Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region. In: Материалы по Археологии и Истории Античного и Средневекового Крыма Археология, история, нумизматика, сфрагистика иэпиграфика. (Moscow State University) Севастополь Тюмень Нижневартовск 2015. pp. 50-58.) https://www.academia.edu/24918722/Ce..._Pontic_Region





    But is this author over-enthusiastic? He seems to find Celts all over the place.

    I'll have a read and opine. Thanks for the reference.

    ****The best part of the paper is on the Celtic presence in Transcarpathia. That's pretty much in line with the most recent research. But the rest is very uneven (to be kind). He has no real understanding of the Bastarnian phenomenon, and confuses La Tene proper with LaTenized cultures. While also dragging in irrelevant Anatolian material. Unfortunately some of the words he adduces as indicating an Old Celtic trace have been erased in this online version. I think there is still a paper to do on the issue but he doesn't seem to have the wherewithal. Didn't even do a proper job on the context of the Protogenes decree. ****
    Last edited by George; 08-19-2016 at 12:14 AM. Reason: Opining (:=))

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I'll have a read and opine. Thanks for the reference.

    ****The best part of the paper is on the Celtic presence in Transcarpathia. That's pretty much in line with the most recent research. But the rest is very uneven (to be kind). He has no real understanding of the Bastarnian phenomenon, and confuses La Tene proper with LaTenized cultures. While also dragging in irrelevant Anatolian material. Unfortunately some of the words he adduces as indicating an Old Celtic trace have been erased in this online version. I think there is still a paper to do on the issue but he doesn't seem to have the wherewithal. Didn't even do a proper job on the context of the Protogenes decree. ****
    That is much as I expected. Thank you very much for your analysis. I follow his blog, as he comes up with some interesting objects, but I felt uneasy about his conclusions and took a cautious approach in Blood of the Celts. Here's Barry Cunliffe's map of La Tene movements from The Ancient Celts (1997):

    55.LaTeneMovements.jpg

    My version of it for B of the C removed the arrows eastwards onto the steppe and the suggested possible settlement there, not because I felt sure that he was wrong, but because I did not have time to delve into the issue sufficiently to be sure of something that even he seemed unsure about.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-19-2016 at 09:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    That is much as I expected. Thank you very much for your analysis. I follow his blog, as he comes up with some interesting objects, but I felt uneasy about his conclusions and took a cautious approach in Blood of the Celts. Here's Barry Cunliffe's map of La Tene movements from The Ancient Celts (1997):

    55.LaTeneMovements.jpg

    My version of it for B of the C removed the arrows eastwards onto the steppe and the suggested possible settlement there, not because I felt sure that he was wrong, but because I did not have time to delve into the issue sufficiently to be sure of something that even he seemed unsure about.
    There should be a little enclave in southern Poland also. It might have been one of the catalysts behind the PRzeworsk culture which retained many features of "la Tene' elements , such as cremation with bent swords, etc

    ADD: found the paper

    La Tene Poland.jpg

    From: Les Celtes et leurs voisins septentrionaux. Tomasz BOCHNAK
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-20-2016 at 07:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    There should be a little enclave in southern Poland also.
    Barry Cunliffe's map illustrates his section on Classical sources for the Gaulish migrations 400-200 BC, though that evidence is married to archaeological data. My map (see below) is captioned to be clear that it illustrates movements noted in Classical sources (i.e. not all the La Tene material found archaeologically). In my caption I recommend comparison with my illustration 25 (also below), which shows the density of Celtic place-names recorded in Classical sources. Such sources are more plentiful within the former Roman empire, and so may not pick up every wandering Celt outside it, but we do see a splash or two into regions now Slavic-speaking.

    60MovementsGaulsInClassicalSources.JPG

    25.DensityCelticPlace-NamesClassical.JPG

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