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Thread: What is EHG/ Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer?

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    What is EHG/ Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer?

    I was under the impression for quite some time that EHG was basically "ANE + WHG" as it looks via Eurogenes K=8 and as it seemed to be implied (at least as I recall it) in Haak et al. that this is what it was... I even mentioned it as such on my blog months ago. But then a good friend (Agamemnon) mentioned that it in fact might not be that and that we really don't know what it truly is/ it could be something entirely on its own that just shares ancestry with MA-1 hence what looks like "ANE in Europeans who ultimately get "ANE" from their Steppe ancestry isn't "ANE" but a part of their EHG ancestry.

    I even consulted David about this and got the following answer:

     
    Quote Originally Posted by David
    It depends how you define EHG, ANE and WHG, and the concept of pure components.

    They can all be distinct pops, or EHG can be a mix of ANE and WHG, or even WHG can be a mix of EHG and something as yet unsampled.



    I ultimately ended up adding this more cautious view into my blog post from just last month.

    Have any of you looked into the Karelian Hunter-Gatherer yourselves and turned up with your own conclusions? Do you think EHG is basically "ANE + WHG" as even DMXX seemed to think (like I did)? Or do you think it's something else entirely?

    We can also use this thread to drop anything new and interesting on EHGs...

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    EHG looks are Uralic/Lappid.
    And for modern incarnation of Mesolithic blond blue eyed EHG type you can check Mika Hakkinen.

    That is to sum up what I found on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    EHG looks are Uralic/Lappid.
    And for modern incarnation of Mesolithic blond blue eyed EHG type you can check Mika Hakkinen.

    That is to sum up what I found on the subject.
    You mean in skull shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    EHG looks are Uralic/Lappid.
    And for modern incarnation of Mesolithic blond blue eyed EHG type you can check Mika Hakkinen.

    That is to sum up what I found on the subject.
    Mika Hakkinen looks like a fish.

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    EHG is related to WHG and ANE but can't be fit as a mixture of them according to Haak et al so it might be its own thing.

    The uralic/lappid description means something that's supposed to look like a "stereotypical" saami or mari. This is one of the reconstructions by Gerasimov from the site.



    but another looks like this:



    They probably had a wide range of appearences, as there's no genetic evidence the site had multiple different populations during the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    EHG looks are Uralic/Lappid.
    And for modern incarnation of Mesolithic blond blue eyed EHG type you can check Mika Hakkinen.

    That is to sum up what I found on the subject.
    You are probably right that they would best fit in areas with Uralic/Lappid populations but in my opinion they were darker. This is the reconstructed face of an EHG Karelia Hunter Gather (I think he is the same who was positive for R1a*). Looks very archaic

    Edit: Shaikorth posted the pics already. I was talking about the second one
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 07-07-2015 at 10:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    You are probably right that they would best fit in areas with Uralic/Lappid populations but in my opinion they were darker. This is the reconstructed face of an EHG Karelia Hunter Gather (I think he is the same who was positive for R1a*). Looks very archaic

    Edit: Shaikorth posted the pics already. I was talking about the second one
    I agree, the pigmentation data implied sort of dark complexion. If we speak of modern look-alikes Magnus Carlsen might be "EHG-ish" in appearence, but with reconstructions it's hard to be sure about their real looks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    EHG is related to WHG and ANE but can't be fit as a mixture of them according to Haak et al so it might be its own thing.

    The uralic/lappid description means something that's supposed to look like a "stereotypical" saami or mari. This is one of the reconstructions by Gerasimov from the site.



    but another looks like this:



    They probably had a wide range of appearences, as there's no genetic evidence the site had multiple different populations during the time.
    They had at least two different populations according anthropological evidence. My guess WHG and EHG.
    Have they checked more than one Meso Karelian genomically?

    The exact specimen from Haak was found described in Rus anthro book. His gender in book was typed as woman but with question mark. So, he could only be model for Meso "woman" reconstruction.
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,2890.60.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    They had at least two different populations according anthropological evidence. My guess WHG and EHG.
    Have they checked more than one Meso Karelian genomically?

    The exact specimen from Haak was found described in Rus anthro book. His gender in book was typed as woman but with question mark. So, he could only be model for Meso "woman" reconstruction.
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,2890.60.html
    I think there was just one population with individuals having looks comparable to modern variation, and the idea about multiple ones was just anthropologists mistaking local variation. We don't have evidence of pure WHG's even in Scandinavia much less in Karelia. Loschbour didn't look like either of those reconstructions.

    Regarding the unreliability of physical anthropology, see here, pages 39-41:

    http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf

    Some 300 years old remains of crewmen from a Swedish ship were classified as Egyptian, Chinese and Native American. However a genetic analysis revealed that all of them clustered in Europe, and specifically near Orcadians, Finns and Russians as modern Swedes would. If physical classification of just 300 years old bones makes continent-wide misses, imagine how it is with over 7000 years old bones like those EHG's. So unless they test more and find a clearly distinct population from the site, I think it's all the same EHG.

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    You hope it is the same EHG...

    I am lazy to look for exact materials but Soviet school was good enough in cross comparing anthropological types. It is pretty common knowledge that Baltic area was populated from South (South-West) and East. From South arrived Euro looking folk, from East Uralic looking

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