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Thread: [Split] Classification of Pashto

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Scythian-Sarmatian spoken in the North Pontic steppe was quite different from Saka spoken in Central Asia/Siberia. Scythian was (North)East Iranian and Saka(Khotanese) was southeast Iranian. Pashto is in my opinion not so close related to Scythian-Sarmatian but quite close to Saka. Many assume that Saka and Scythians were the same people (often both terms are used as synonyms) but in my opinion they were distinct from each other even when they were culturally and linguistically very similar. But Saka were likely very heterogeneous and spoke different kind of East Iranian dialects/languages some closer to Pashto/Pamiri and other closer to Scythian.
    Khotanese had dialects I read it had two dialects. Pashto being of Saka origin was purposed by Georg Morgenstierne, he believed Pashto had Avestan affiliation and Saka origin.

    I have been reading quite some texts, pretty interesting. The book is written by an Alakozai, so I got interested.


    A Concise History of Afghanistan in 25 Volumes, Volume 14
    By Hamid Wahed Alikuzai
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 07-01-2015 at 04:59 PM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Scythian; dialects is(are) genetically autonomous branch of East Iranian languages of the ancient period.
    The affinity is based (not exclusive) on the fact that Pashto is an eastern Iranian language and its closeness to Ossetian language which is regarded as Scytho-Samaritan descendant my many linguists.

    Not all modern day pashto speakers speak the same Pashto.

    Scythian, Samaritan and Alanian are not written languages. But Ossetian and Pashto are still modern day spoken and written languages.
    Yes, but that doesn't address my point which is that linguistic classification doesn't by itself constitute hard evidence for Scythian genetic affinities of Pashtuns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Iranian languages have four main dialectological categories:

    North-West Iranian, South-West-Iranian, East-Iranian and South-East-Iranian.

    Pashto is not a NE Iranian language, its plainly eastern Iranian. Eastern Iranian languages are Ossete(North and South Ossetia)-(Scytho-Samaritan descendant), Pashto, Yaghnobi(Sogdian descendant), Pamiri languages....

    Shughni, Sanglechi-Ishkashimi, Wakhi(Pamiri) are actually plain E Iranian language so is Pashto, they have quite similarity. All of these languages have retroflex as well.

    Also,
    Farsi and Tajiki is considered South-West Iranian.
    Zaziki, Kurdish and balochi : North-Western Iranian
    Pashto, Sanglechi-Ishkashimi(sometimes),Shugni, Wakhi : East Iranian
    Parachi: South East Iranian

    Also the modern Pashto spoken in Pakistan is heavily Urdufied much like the pashto spoken in Northern Afghanistan(Mazar and vicinity) is heavily Persianfied.

    Further more Pashto is Neo-Iranian now along with others. I can't derail this thread further more. This can be discussed in the Pashto section.
    Northeast Iranian: Yaghnobi, Ossetian
    Southeast Iranian: Pashto, Wakhi, Shughni, Munji, Yidgha, Parachi, Ormuri, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Northeast Iranian: Yaghnobi, Ossetian
    Southeast Iranian: Pashto, Wakhi, Shughni, Munji, Yidgha, Parachi, Ormuri, etc.
    Yes, this is the traditional scheme I've seen in several documents discussing the breakdown in Iranic languages.

    I've done a couple of intermittent searches since splitting this thread away and still haven't found much on the "Neo-Iranian" group. I take surbakhun's word (from PM) that it is a valid construct, particularly as I've seen a diagram from a recent article discussing it within the past two years.

    Does anyone have any information off-hand on "Neo-Iranian", which I understand Pashto also falls under? Or am I mixing up terminologies here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Yes, this is the traditional scheme I've seen in several documents discussing the breakdown in Iranic languages.

    I've done a couple of intermittent searches since splitting this thread away and still haven't found much on the "Neo-Iranian" group. I take surbakhun's word (from PM) that it is a valid construct, particularly as I've seen a diagram from a recent article discussing it within the past two years.

    Does anyone have any information off-hand on "Neo-Iranian", which I understand Pashto also falls under? Or am I mixing up terminologies here?
    Perhaps, it still is a speculation as linguists and/or authors further work on simplifying the categories ... here are few links:


    Screen Shot 2015-12-10 at 5.07.27 PM.png
    https://books.google.com/books?id=T-...guages&f=false

    Screen Shot 2015-12-10 at 5.14.15 PM.jpg
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ye...guages&f=false

    Screen Shot 2015-12-10 at 5.22.35 PM.png
    http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/person...s/upsala00.pdf

    https://books.google.com/books?id=27...guages&f=false
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 12-11-2015 at 01:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Yes, this is the traditional scheme I've seen in several documents discussing the breakdown in Iranic languages.

    I've done a couple of intermittent searches since splitting this thread away and still haven't found much on the "Neo-Iranian" group. I take surbakhun's word (from PM) that it is a valid construct, particularly as I've seen a diagram from a recent article discussing it within the past two years.

    Does anyone have any information off-hand on "Neo-Iranian", which I understand Pashto also falls under? Or am I mixing up terminologies here?
    The Iranic languages had three major stages of evolution when since first coming into existence. The first stage is called Old Iranian, the second stage is called Middle Iranian, and the third stage is called Neo-Iranian or Modern Iranian.

    All modern day Iranian languages fall under the term "Neo-Iranian". Neo-Iranian is a term used to refer to all Iranian languages that have been in existence since the past 1,000-1,500 years.

    ---

    Let me make a list for you:

    Old Iranian

    West Iranian
    Old Persian (SW)
    Median (NW)

    Middle Iranian

    West Iranian
    Middle Persian (SW)
    Parthian (NW)

    East Iranian
    Bactrian (SE)
    Khwarezmian (SE?)
    Sogdian (NE)
    Scythian (NE)

    Neo-Iranian (Modern Iranian)

    West Iranian
    Standard Persian (SW)
    Luri Persian (SW)
    Khuzi Persian (SW)
    Semnani (SW)
    Gilaki (SW)
    Kurmanji (NW)
    Sorani (NW)
    Zazaki (NW)
    Gorani (NW)
    Talysh (NW)
    Tati (NW)

    East Iranian
    Ossetian (NE)
    Yaghnobi (NE)
    Pashto (SE)
    Shughni (SE)
    Munji (SE)
    Yidgha (SE)
    Ishkashimi (SE)
    Sanglechi (SE)
    Wakhi (SE)
    Sarikoli (SE)

    Of course there are some I left out, but you get the basic picture. For the people reading that it isn't obvious to: NW=northwest, SW=southwest, NE=northeast, SE=southeast

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  12. #17
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    Neo-Iranian just simply refers to the modern evolution of Iranian languages. All Iranian languages spoken today are classified under it. Similar to how there is Old English, Middle English, and Modern English. Its the same with Iranian languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Neo-Iranian just simply refers to the modern evolution of Iranian languages. All Iranian languages spoken today are classified under it. Similar to how there is Old English, Middle English, and Modern English. Its the same with Iranian languages.
    It has been established already and we are pretty much discussing its evolution within a scholarly premise, and you can see we provided resources and links.

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  16. #19
    Can someone give me an example of a Pamiri language? When I look it up on youtube it sounds like Farsi not Pashto.

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    Well, this is Ishkashimi

    Wok adom nek wok sok
    Dau adoman sefaran sood
    Tsand wruzan sawal sood
    Wi deyr zunduk sood
    Nek sokba gezd, ”wok lav gala mumba dai”
    …..


    Translation:
    One man good one bad
    Two men on a journey they went
    They were on road for some days
    His stomach became hungry
    Good told Bad, “Give to me a piece of bread”
    ……

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