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Thread: [Split] Classification of Pashto

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    [Split] Classification of Pashto

    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    Just a side note, but Pashto is a NE Iranian language, it is quite close to the Pamiri languages (if this is something you would like to contest, we can start citing the books and papers. Construing Pashto as "SE Iranian" is rare, and a close relationship to Pamiri languages is universally recognized). Scythian input is expected for Pashtuns, just based on that linguistic fact, and it wouldn't be surprising if Sintashta probably covers for some substantial Scythian ancestry.

    I'm pretty confident that South Asian aDNA will back me up, and when that occurs, I'll certainly forgive you for this whole conversation ().

    Iranian languages have four main dialectological categories:

    North-West Iranian, South-West-Iranian, East-Iranian and South-East-Iranian.

    Pashto is not a NE Iranian language, its plainly eastern Iranian. Eastern Iranian languages are Ossete(North and South Ossetia)-(Scytho-Samaritan descendant), Pashto, Yaghnobi(Sogdian descendant), Pamiri languages....

    Shughni, Sanglechi-Ishkashimi, Wakhi(Pamiri) are actually plain E Iranian language so is Pashto, they have quite similarity. All of these languages have retroflex as well.

    Also,
    Farsi and Tajiki is considered South-West Iranian.
    Zaziki, Kurdish and balochi : North-Western Iranian
    Pashto, Sanglechi-Ishkashimi(sometimes),Shugni, Wakhi : East Iranian
    Parachi: South East Iranian

    Also the modern Pashto spoken in Pakistan is heavily Urdufied much like the pashto spoken in Northern Afghanistan(Mazar and vicinity) is heavily Persianfied.

    Further more Pashto is Neo-Iranian now along with others. I can't derail this thread further more. This can be discussed in the Pashto section.
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 06-30-2015 at 07:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    Just a quick response:

    In other words, if you don't use the very category of "NE Iranian", Pashto isn't "NE Iranian"! You've simply designated the NE Iranian languages as "East Iranian". It's just a terminological change, not a change in conception. The broad unity of Pamiri languages and Pashto still stands (as does the point concerning Scythian affinities).

    And of course, Pashto has been affected considerably by neighboring languages.
    Who am I to designate what Pashto falls under?! Its done by linguists. Despite the fact that I hate repetition on a tangent, I have to reiterate

    Iranian languages have four main dialectological categories:

    North-West Iranian, South-West-Iranian, East-Iranian and South-East-Iranian.


    Never heard of NE Iranian under Iranian in the linguistic world. The newest classification is Neo-Iranian which Pashto falls under. Unless you are a linguist with valid specification no one in the linguistic world will validate the NE Iranian claim vacuity. Terminology change ofc, but they change with a purpose, they don't change because it serves a layman's purpose. The very reason we all like to be logical and be on the scientific path when discussing such issues.

    I have to ask, do you understand any of the Pamiri languages? The 'broad unity' that you speak of can apply to all Iranian languages. There is a broad similarty between dari and Pashto as well and they fall under different categories. I did clarify the specific Pamiri laguages Pashto shares similarity with. Therefore you cannot randomly use the term broad affiliation here, its not scientific at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Who am I to designate what Pashto falls under?! Its done by linguists. Despite the fact that I hate repetition on a tangent, I have to reiterate

    Iranian languages have four main dialectological categories:

    North-West Iranian, South-West-Iranian, East-Iranian and South-East-Iranian.


    Never heard of NE Iranian under Iranian in the linguistic world. The newest classification is Neo-Iranian which Pashto falls under. Unless you are a linguist with valid specification no one in the linguistic world will validate the NE Iranian claim vacuity. Terminology change ofc, but they change with a purpose, they don't change because it serves a layman's purpose. The very reason we all like to be logical and be on the scientific path when discussing such issues.

    I have to ask, do you understand any of the Pamiri languages? The 'broad unity' that you speak of can apply to all Iranian languages. There is a broad similarty between dari and Pashto as well and they fall under different categories. I did clarify the specific Pamiri laguages Pashto shares similarity with. Therefore you cannot randomly use the term broad affiliation here, its not scientific at all.
    I don't think you understand this Zahra:

    "NE Iranian" is often used in older works, and it means the same thing as "East Iranian"! Mainly, Pashto + Pamiri languages. The concept hasn't changed, the term has. They mean the same thing.

    Also, if this topic interests you, we can discuss this in the Pashto section.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    I don't think you understand this Zahra:

    "NE Iranian" is often used in older works, and it means the same thing as "East Iranian"! Mainly, Pashto + Pamiri languages. The concept hasn't changed, the term has. They mean the same thing.

    Also, if this topic interests you, we can discuss this in the Pashto section.
    Yes, whatever you call the category that Pashto falls under, the salient fact (as per you) is that it is grouped with Pamiri. So I think a discussion on what the particular category is called is superfluous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    I don't think you understand this Zahra:

    "NE Iranian" is often used in older works, and it means the same thing as "East Iranian"! Mainly, Pashto + Pamiri languages. The concept hasn't changed, the term has. They mean the same thing.

    Also, if this topic interests you, we can discuss this in the Pashto section.
    Maybe you are right about me not understanding but I need to clarify, excuse my audacity

    NE Iranian is and used used for
    Avestan
    Bactrian....

    so for me it has a different meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    I don't think you understand this Zahra:

    "NE Iranian" is often used in older works, and it means the same thing as "East Iranian"! Mainly, Pashto + Pamiri languages. The concept hasn't changed, the term has. They mean the same thing.

    Also, if this topic interests you, we can discuss this in the Pashto section.
    Pashto and Pamiri languages are best classified as Southeast Iranian languages.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-01-2015 at 12:17 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    But I agree that Pashto being grouped with Pamiri doesn't by itself constitute evidence for Scythian affinities of modern-day Pashto speakers. At least not to the degree some are proposing.
    Last edited by bored; 06-30-2015 at 11:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bored View Post
    But I agree that Pashto being grouped with Pamiri doesn't by itself constitute evidence for Scythian affinities of modern-day Pashto speakers. At least not to the degree some are proposing.
    Scythian; dialects is(are) genetically autonomous branch of East Iranian languages of the ancient period.
    The affinity is based (not exclusive) on the fact that Pashto is an eastern Iranian language and its closeness to Ossetian language which is regarded as Scytho-Samaritan descendant my many linguists.

    Not all modern day pashto speakers speak the same Pashto.

    Scythian, Samaritan and Alanian are not written languages. But Ossetian and Pashto are still modern day spoken and written languages.

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    [ADMIN] Split from here.

    No more concerns about derailing the other thread now, folks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Scythian; dialects is(are) genetically autonomous branch of East Iranian languages of the ancient period.
    The affinity is based (not exclusive) on the fact that Pashto is an eastern Iranian language and its closeness to Ossetian language which is regarded as Scytho-Samaritan descendant my many linguists.

    Not all modern day pashto speakers speak the same Pashto.

    Scythian, Samaritan and Alanian are not written languages. But Ossetian and Pashto are still modern day spoken and written languages.
    Scythian-Sarmatian spoken in the North Pontic steppe was quite different from Saka spoken in Central Asia/Siberia. Scythian was (North)East Iranian and Saka(Khotanese) was southeast Iranian. Pashto is in my opinion not so close related to Scythian-Sarmatian but quite close to Saka. Many assume that Saka and Scythians were the same people (often both terms are used as synonyms) but in my opinion they were distinct from each other even when they were culturally and linguistically very similar. But Saka were likely very heterogeneous and spoke different kind of East Iranian dialects/languages some closer to Pashto/Pamiri and other closer to Scythian.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 07-01-2015 at 09:44 AM.

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