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Thread: R1b findings by (Allentoft et al. 2015)

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    If L11 both headed north as a minority in CW and also west to form the P312 block associated with beaker then my favoured idea for the original location of L11 would be within western Yamanaya but bordering the origin areas of CW closely so a little L11 could bleed through into CW. It seems to me that L11 bordered and could pass in small nos into CW but was really part of it. That would tend to place CW in the lower stretches of the westernmost steppe rivers.
    I know I have posted this more than once, but IMHO R1b-U106 traveled with R1a, maybe as its western vanguard, as part of Corded Ware around the east and north sides of the Carpathians onto the North European Plain, while its brother clade under L11, R1b-P312, headed south of the Carpathians and up the Danube Valley. Thus the different distributions of R1b-U106 and R1b-P312 and the apparent connection of the former to Germanic and of the latter to Italo-Celtic.
     


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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts on the U106 in the CW-Battle Axe Swedish sample? Obviously its relatively late, beaker existed and Michal raised some unusual aspects of the burial itself. Is the general feeling that this probably is evidence of U106 in a non-beaker derived man of CW extraction. He is from Sweden so seeking a beaker explanation would look like special pleading to me. Is the general feeling then that L11 and U106 were in CW and not some stray from another culture?
    Davidski found that RISE98(has U106) is just like modern Scandinavians, while an earlier Battle Axe person was just like Corded Ware on the mainland.

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2015...alysis-of.html
    Last edited by Krefter; 06-24-2015 at 10:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Davidski found that RISE94(has U106) is just like modern Scandinavians, while an earlier Battle Axe person was just like Corded Ware on the mainland.

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2015...alysis-of.html
    The difference in ages provides enough time for the later of the two to derive from a lineage that had mixed with the locals to a greater extent than the older one.
     


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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Thanks for that flurry of discussion. What I can take to the bank then is that RISE1 is solidly R1b1 but of too low coverage to squeeze anything further out of him. The possibility that he was L11 derived cannot be eliminated.

    So, we have at least one Corded Ware R1b and that in Poland.
    Not as high a probability, but RISE1 could also be R-Z2103 since it is ~5-6% in Poland.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  9. #65
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    There is a new and very cool cladogram that shows the Y haplogroup assignment of 16 aDNA R1b samples from Haak et al. 2015 and Allentoft et al. 2015. It's posted on the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project background page along with a .pdf download link. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    Thanks smal!
    Last edited by Joe B; 06-25-2015 at 01:27 AM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    There is a new and very cool cladogram that shows the Y haplogroup assignment of 16 aDNA R1b samples from Haak et al. 2015 and Allentoft et al. 2015. It's posted on the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project background page along with a .pdf download link.
    I'm afraid that those without a login to Family Tree DNA can no longer see content. So your image does not enlarge for me.

  12. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I'm afraid that those without a login to Family Tree DNA can no longer see content. So your image does not enlarge for me.
    This should work


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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    This should work
    I found it here as well: http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_23.06.2015.pdf
    So I can link to it where I cite Smal on my aDNA tables. Great!

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  16. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Davidski found that RISE98(has U106) is just like modern Scandinavians, while an earlier Battle Axe person was just like Corded Ware on the mainland.
    What is the dating of RISE98? I feel like I'm about ready to say I'm wrong on something. If U106 was very early in Scandinavia, prior to Jastorf I mean, then U106 was not bottled up to the east or southeast at that time.

    In that case, the lack of U106 on the Atlantic Seaboard may truly be according to Richard S's thoughts on this and the pre-Celtic/Italo-Celtic (or whatever those P312 folks were) people provided a societal wall dominating the Atlantic Coast.

    ...... well, as is usual, it is a little more complicated and there is always the need for more data. Is this person Z301+ or Z301- ? It makes a difference. Z301, where L48 and U198 sit, is the dominant U106 subclade in the Isles and apparently NW Europe. It might make some sense that they were bottled up to the east and south prior to Jastorf and some of the other parts of U106 were out in the North Sea area early. I see Yfull thinks Z301 has a TMRCA of about 2800 BC. In comparison they have the P312 TMRCA at 2600 BC.

    This scenario actually would make at least one Z156+ person (U106+ but Z301-) very happy, the original Irishman. He might have been from the U106 scouting party (which may not have been pre-Germanic at all). Meanwhile, the Z301 group who's population grew the most and were pre-Germanic came later ... possibly.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 06-25-2015 at 12:28 PM.

  17. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    . . .
    In that case, the lack of U106 on the Atlantic Seaboard may truly be according to Richard S's thoughts on this and the pre-Celtic/Italo-Celtic (or whatever those P312 folks were) people provided a societal wall dominating the Atlantic Coast.

    ...... well, as is usual, it is a little more complicated and there is always the need for more data. Is this person Z301+ or Z301- ? It makes a difference. Z301, where L48 and U198 sit, is the dominant U106 subclade in the Isles and apparently NW Europe. It might make some sense that they were bottled up to the east and south prior to Jastorf and some of the other parts of U106 were out in the North Sea area early. I see Yfull thinks Z301 has a TMRCA of about 2800 BC. In comparison they have the P312 TMRCA at 2600 BC.
    Here's some relevant stuff from Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language.

    RE R1b-P312 and the Italo-Celtic migration:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Anthony
    After a pause of only a century or two, about 3100-3000 BCE, a large migration stream erupted from within the western Yamnaya region and flowed up the Danube valley and into the Carpathian Basin during the early Bronze Age. Literally thousands of kurgans can be assigned to this event, which could reasonably have incubated the ancestral dialects for several western Indo-European language branches, including Pre-Italic and Pre-Celtic (p.305).
    RE R1b-U106 and the Germanic migration stream (I'm not ignoring Balto-Slavic, but my focus here is on R1b-U106 and Germanic):

    Quote Originally Posted by David Anthony
    After this movement slowed or stopped, about 2800-2600 BCE, late Yamnaya people came face to face with people who made Corded Ware tumulus cemeteries in the east Carpathian foothills, a historic meeting through which dialects ancestral to the northern Indo-European languages (Germanic, Slavic, Baltic) began to spread among eastern Corded Ware groups (pp. 305-306).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    This scenario actually would make at least one Z156+ person (U106+ but Z301-) very happy, the original Irishman. He might have been from the U106 scouting party (which may not have been pre-Germanic at all). Meanwhile, the Z301 group who's population grew the most and were pre-Germanic came later.
    I'm sure that was tongue-in-cheek. That guy just needs to embrace his inner Anglo-Saxon.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-25-2015 at 10:28 PM. Reason: To correct an errror
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

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