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Thread: R1b findings by (Allentoft et al. 2015)

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    any thoughts on the Armenian R1b and its origins, date etc Jean. Haven the time to look into it myself.
    I have been fully occupied myself, what with one thing and another.

    I have added a link to Smal's tree to my post above. Here it is again: http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_...05_25_2015.pdf

    I can do no more than state the obvious. RISE397 is in the same R1b1a2a2 branch as most modern Armenian R1b, but the modern samples of the specific terminal SNP found by Smal are scattered: one Sardinian, one with a Sicilian surname, but one has an Armenian surname. Obviously it had arrived in Armenia before 1048-855 BC, which is the date of RISE397.

    At that date, the language of the region was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartian_language , which is not Indo-European. It was replaced by Armenian centuries later. However some presence of R1b in the Late Bronze Age could be explained by contact with IE-speakers of Anatolia.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-19-2015 at 11:21 AM.

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  3. #42
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    Question

    I apologize for not wanting to go back and hunt through every post in this thread, but what ever happened with RISE1, that Polish Corded Ware that was supposed to be R1b of some kind? Was that ever confirmed or eliminated? And what of RISE00, the Estonian Corded Ware that someone said might also be R1b? Any word on that?

    Thanks in advance.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I apologize for not wanting to go back and hunt through every post in this thread, but what ever happened with RISE1, that Polish Corded Ware that was supposed to be R1b of some kind? Was that ever confirmed or eliminated? And what of RISE00, the Estonian Corded Ware that someone said might also be R1b? Any word on that? Thanks in advance.
    RISE00 - Female.
    RISE1 - One of the worse quality samples in the dataset. Allentoft 2015 labelled it R1b it seems on the absence of any negative calls between P and R1b1-PF6266. Given the absence of any positive calls in that same range, Genetiker preferred to label it P, but jdean reported that it appears to be postive for Y435 (2934185 C to T) which according to Ybrowser is 'Approx. hg: R-M207' [R]. So we can't get much further than R with any certainty, it appears.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-24-2015 at 12:57 PM.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I apologize for not wanting to go back and hunt through every post in this thread, but what ever happened with RISE1, that Polish Corded Ware that was supposed to be R1b of some kind? Was that ever confirmed or eliminated? And what of RISE00, the Estonian Corded Ware that someone said might also be R1b? Any word on that?

    Thanks in advance.
    Smal pointed out that Rise one was positive for a SNP at the R1b1 level

    Quote Originally Posted by smal View Post
    21558298 (G->T) is a well known marker, L1345/PF6266/YSC0000224, positioned in the R-L754 node.
    That's probably as good as we will be able to get it, Rise1 was more holes than cheese : )

    RISE00 was a stupid mistake on my part, I noticed the sample was female after posting my 'observation' : )

    Still note sure why Felix posted Y data for the fairer sex though ?
    Last edited by jdean; 06-24-2015 at 01:16 PM.

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post

    At that date, the language of the region was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartian_language , which is not Indo-European. It was replaced by Armenian centuries later. However some presence of R1b in the Late Bronze Age could be explained by contact with IE-speakers of Anatolia.
    2 of the samples are also E-M123 and 1 J2b2 within a plausibly Hurrian speaking time frame. Some others have jumped the gun and made an association of R1b to Hurrian, but it shows a great deal of bias considering we have 3 very different male lineages in a small geography over a short span of time.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Karmin et al. 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by smal
    21558298 (G->T) is a well known marker, L1345/PF6266/YSC0000224, positioned in the R-L754 node.
    Smal pointed out that Rise one was positive for a SNP at the R1b1 level



    . . .
    So those SNPs you listed in the quote from smal are at the R1b1 level? I couldn't find any of them on ISOGG's R Tree. Is that pretty solid then? In other words, can we say we have our first Corded Ware R1b with some confidence, or is it still iffy?
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    So those SNPs you listed in the quote from smal are at the R1b1 level? I couldn't find any of them on ISOGG's R Tree. Is that pretty solid then? In other words, can we say we have our first Corded Ware R1b with some confidence, or is it still iffy?
    According to Smal L1345 is well know and suggest Karmin 2015 as one source, I did find an open access link to this paper but I failed when I looked just now

    I found at least one vagally R SNP and another for P so it doesn't look to bad, however this sample is the proverbial Swiss Cheese !!!

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  15. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    According to Smal L1345 is well know and suggest Karmin 2015 as one source, I did find an open access link to this paper but I failed when I looked just now

    I found at least one vagally R SNP and another for P so it doesn't look to bad, however this sample is the proverbial Swiss Cheese !!!
    Yeah, L1345 is in Karmin 2015 on their R1b1'14 branch (the one uniting V88 and P297) listed as an equivalent to L754. So just a general marker of R1b1, excluding only the very basal R1b found in Tajikistan and Bhutan.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 06-24-2015 at 05:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Smal pointed out that Rise one was positive for a SNP at the R1b1 level
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Yeah, L1345 is in Karmin 2015 on their R1b1'14 branch (the one uniting V88 and P297) listed as an equivalent to L754. So just a general marker of R1b1, excluding only the very basal R1b found in Tajikistan and Bhutan.
    I missed that. Thanks! So I can reassign RISE1 from R1b (Allentoft assignment) to R1b1'14? Or, as that is not on ISOGG, do I stick with R1b?
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-24-2015 at 05:44 PM.

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  19. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I missed that. Thanks! So I can reassign RISE1 from R1b (Allentoft assignment) to R1b1'14? Or, as that is not on ISOGG, do I stick with R1b?
    A quick check against some 1000 Genome samples...seven samples that are at least R1b1 are all L1345+, four R1a samples are all L1345- and for good measure, two R2 samples are also L1345-...

    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-24-2015 at 07:06 PM.
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