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Thread: R1b findings by (Allentoft et al. 2015)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    Sample> Culture > Allentoft haplogroup > Community results
    We don't have any Unetice Y DNA yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yamnaya and corded ware were separated by the Carpathians when you get as far west as they plot M269. ... .
    The Unetice did not start as early as the Corded Ware or the Bell Beaker but all three have a period of overlap and a geography of overlap. I just can't help thinking there is a significance to Desideri's findings that the men (dental traits) were similar at this intersection while the women were not. Along with that, the metalworking at the intersection was the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eupedia
    The archeological and genetic evidence (distribution of R1b subclades) point at several consecutive waves towards eastern and central Germany between 2800 BCE and 2300 BCE. The Unetice culture was probably the first culture in which R1b-L11 lineages played a major role...
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    I don't agree with everything on Eupedia, however.

    What do you all think about the beginnings of the Unetice, who would have broad trade ties all the way to the Atlantic and even England?
    Last edited by Mikewww; 06-18-2015 at 03:33 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Now we have a U106 in battle axe and another R1b in CW I think this indicates that L11 was located in a position very close but not in the CW genesis area around the middle Dnieper.
    That Scandinavian R1b-U106 sample (RISE98) cannot be securely assigned to Battle Axe/Corded Ware (as explained elsewhere), while the other reported case of R1b found in the very low quality CWC sample from Poland (RISE1) has not been confirmed as R1b after being analysed by several members of this forum. Thus, we still lack any confirmed R1b result evidently associated with Corded Ware.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    That Scandinavian R1b-U106 sample (RISE98) cannot be securely assigned to Battle Axe/Corded Ware (as explained elsewhere), while the other reported case of R1b found in the very low quality CWC sample from Poland (RISE1) has not been confirmed as R1b after being analysed by several members of this forum. Thus, we still lack any confirmed R1b result evidently associated with Corded Ware.
    RISE1 is R1b1-L1345+. The only reason why genetiker said it wasn't R1b is because it is too upstream for his liking given its age. To me, that is not a convincing enough reason to not label it what the data says it is, which is R1b1. Apparently the authors of the paper were comfortable enough that they designated it as such.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    We don't have any Unetice Y DNA yet.
    Have the 3 Unetice Y-DNA samples (all I2) from Haak et al been discredited or something?

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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    RISE1 is R1b1-L1345+. The only reason why genetiker said it wasn't R1b is because it is too upstream for his liking given its age. To me, that is not a convincing enough reason to not label it what the data says it is, which is R1b1. Apparently the authors of the paper were comfortable enough that they designated it as such.
    Is the M269 status of this sample known? If it is indeed confirmed M269- would it not actually support Genetiker's position in conjunction with Els Trocs that R1b is much older in Europe than the steppe input?

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Is the M269 status of this sample known? If it is indeed confirmed M269- would it not actually support Genetiker's position in conjunction with Els Trocs that R1b is much older in Europe than the steppe input?
    Nope Corded Ware only dates from about 2800BC and Yamnaya existed from around 3300BC. The reading simply is too poor to resolve it further than R1b1. It doesnt imply its actually some basal clade of R1b. I would bet that its some form of L23 derivative and probably an L11 derivative.

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    RISE1 is R1b1-L1345+. The only reason why genetiker said it wasn't R1b is because it is too upstream for his liking given its age. To me, that is not a convincing enough reason to not label it what the data says it is, which is R1b1. Apparently the authors of the paper were comfortable enough that they designated it as such.
    How many reads are available for L1345? Is it the only position for known SNPs from the M343>...>L11 levels that is readable for that sample?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Have the 3 Unetice Y-DNA samples (all I2) from Haak et al been discredited or something?
    Not to my knowledge.

    EUL 57B = I2. L68+, P158+
    ESP 2 = I2a2
    ESP 4 = I2c2
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-18-2015 at 11:51 PM.

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  15. #39
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    Update:

    RISE1. Corded Ware. R1b. This sample is very low coverage and uncertain below R, it seems from discussion Genetiker, Richard Rocca and JDean.
    RISE47. Nordic Bronze Age. R1b. R1b1a2* (M520/PF6410), according to Genetiker and VinceT.
    RISE98. Swedish Battle Axe. R1b. R1b1a2a1a1 (U106) say Genetiker, Felix, Greg Magoon and Vince T.
    RISE276. Nordic Bronze Age. R1b. R1b1a2a (Genetiker) - I await confirmation.
    RISE397. Late Bronze Age Armenia. R1b. R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>CTS7763>Y:18249219(A/C) Finding from Smal for which you need his tree: http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_...05_25_2015.pdf
    RISE413. Middle Bronze Age Armenia. R1b. R1b1a2 (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE524. Mezhovskaya. R1b. R1b1a2 (PF6494) (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE546. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2 (PF6482/YSC0000203) (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE547. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2a2 (CTS9416) (Genetiker). Smal confirmed and added > Z2106+ . The latter is not on ISOGG - see YFull.
    RISE548. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2a2 (Z2105) (Genetiker). Smal confirmed and added downstream SNPs not on ISOGG. See his tree: http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_...05_25_2015.pdf
    RISE550. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2 (Genetiker and Felix). Smal confirmed and added downstream SNPs equiv R-Z2103 on Y-Full = R1b1a2a2.
    RISE555. Early Bronze Age Stalingrad Quarry. R1b. R1b1a2a2 (CTS7340/Z2107) (Genetiker). Smal confirmed and added downstream SNP > Z2106+.
    RISE560. Bell Beaker Germany. R1b. R1b1a2a1a2-M12124(xM12050) = P312/S116 (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE563. Bell Beaker Germany. R1b. R1b1a2a1a2b (U152), say Genetiker, Alex Williamson and Richard Rocca.
    RISE564. Bell Beaker Germany. R1b. R1b1a2a1 (L51/M412/PF6536/S167) says Genetiker. I await confirmation.
    RISE566. Bell Beaker Czech Republic. R1b. R1b1a2a1a (P310/PF6546/S129) says Genetiker. I await confirmation.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-19-2015 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Added link to Smal's tree

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  17. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Update:

    RISE1. Corded Ware. R1b. This sample is very low coverage and uncertain below R, it seems from discussion Genetiker, Richard Rocca and JDean.
    RISE47. Nordic Bronze Age. R1b. R1b1a2* (M520/PF6410), according to Genetiker and VinceT.
    RISE98. Swedish Battle Axe. R1b. R1b1a2a1a1 (U106) say Genetiker, Felix, Greg Magoon and Vince T.
    RISE276. Nordic Bronze Age. R1b. R1b1a2a (Genetiker) - I await confirmation.
    RISE397. Late Bronze Age Armenia. R1b. R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>CTS7763>Y:18249219(A/C) Finding from Smal for which you need his tree.
    RISE413. Middle Bronze Age Armenia. R1b. R1b1a2 (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE524. Mezhovskaya. R1b. R1b1a2 (PF6494) (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE546. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2 (PF6482/YSC0000203) (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE547. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2a2 (CTS9416) (Genetiker). Smal confirmed and added > Z2106+ . The latter is not on ISOGG - see YFull.
    RISE548. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2a2 (Z2105) (Genetiker). Smal confirmed and added downstream SNPs not on ISOGG. See his tree.
    RISE550. Yamnaya. R1b. R1b1a2 (Genetiker and Felix). Smal confirmed and added downstream SNPs equiv R-Z2103 on Y-Full = R1b1a2a2.
    RISE555. Early Bronze Age Stalingrad Quarry. R1b. R1b1a2a2 (CTS7340/Z2107) (Genetiker). Smal confirmed and added downstream SNP > Z2106+.
    RISE560. Bell Beaker Germany. R1b. R1b1a2a1a2-M12124(xM12050) = P312/S116 (Genetiker). I await confirmation.
    RISE563. Bell Beaker Germany. R1b. R1b1a2a1a2b (U152), say Genetiker, Alex Williamson and Richard Rocca.
    RISE564. Bell Beaker Germany. R1b. R1b1a2a1 (L51/M412/PF6536/S167) says Genetiker. I await confirmation.
    RISE566. Bell Beaker Czech Republic. R1b. R1b1a2a1a (P310/PF6546/S129) says Genetiker. I await confirmation.
    any thoughts on the Armenian R1b and its origins, date etc Jean. Haven the time to look into it myself.

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