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Thread: Balochistan

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    Hey so is the Balochi version the original song? I thought they were remaking the Baby Doll song in Balochi traditional instrumentation. I think I actually hear the words "Baby Doll" when these guys sing it. By the way, there is no reason to think that the people making traditional folk music are not doing improvisations and looking to remake pop tunes with desi sounds. Those are also living and organic musical lines and they are not stuck in time unlike the general impression.
    If you know bollywood, you would know how them muscians get "inspired" by songs from all around the world. I don't know if these baloch decided to improvise from a bollywood song. You can find ethnic baloch playing old hindi songs but new, I doubt it, not that its impossible. Throughout the song I don't hear any "babydoll" it would be interesting if you can point it exactly when. The song pretty much is like a story telling of him and this girl, love, weather and other stuff.

    If you know anything about Balochis from Balochistan you would understand how they thrive to retain their own identity, culturally ethnically, many ethnic baloch from Baluchistan don't even acknowledge the country they live in. How is their music desi influenced?

  2. #22
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    "Inspired?" You are really being too kind, Zahra. Thanks for sharing the link. Will definitely share it with my brother.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zahra View Post
    If you know bollywood, you would know how them muscians get "inspired" by songs from all around the world. I don't know if these baloch decided to improvise from a bollywood song. You can find ethnic baloch playing old hindi songs but new, I doubt it, not that its impossible. Throughout the song I don't hear any "babydoll" it would be interesting if you can point it exactly when. The song pretty much is like a story telling of him and this girl, love, weather and other stuff.

    If you know anything about Balochis from Balochistan you would understand how they thrive to retain their own identity, culturally ethnically, many ethnic baloch from Baluchistan don't even acknowledge the country they live in. How is their music desi influenced?
    My bad, I thought I had heard "Baby Doll" when I had heard this Balochi song months ago. You're right they don't have it in there. Well, I for one hope that this is a remake of the Bollywood version. People for some reason think that these traditional musicians are "stuck in time", when they are also taking and remaking tunes according to their musical tastes.

    I like this song of Sabaz Ali Bugti. Around 8:00 minutes, they incorporate a bit of Lal Meri Pat Rakhiyo melody into their song. It fits in very well to the whole melody.


    I would consider traditional Balochi music within the realm of desi music, of course within the Indo-Iranian continuity frame.

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    ***"Shahbaz Qalandar" written by Bulleh Shah for Shahbaz Qalandar and the modified qaawalli by Noor Jahan and Nursat fateh ali khan is praisworthy to listen to as well.

    EDIT: ***It was originally written by Amir Khusrow for Lal ShahBaaz Qalandar!
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 05-15-2015 at 03:05 PM.

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    Part of Baloch people origin from Levant - Anatolia. There are carriers of E-L792 subclade among Balochis. (E-L792 is typical fro Syria/Anatolia region).

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    True, the relationship is there, both linguistic as well in some oral traditions and accounts.

    The direction I could never figure out. The account of Ferdausi is very confusing to me, but the best I could figure out was that Baloch soldiers had gone to the Caucasus and Caspian with the Parthians/Pahalavs. Others consider the direction to be reversed, though some of the reasons are suspect. For example, Balochis had a tiger banner. Folk have considered this as an indication of a Caspian (tiger) origin (as if the tiger was not known in Balochistan!).
    Posting this here, as I did not want to derail the Gedrrosia12 thread.
    Extracts from Shahnama that I was referring to in the post:
    http://persian.packhum.org/persian/m...8%26work%3D001
    Next came shrewd Ashkash,
    Endowed with prudent heart and ready brain.
    His troops were from Balúchistán and Kutch,
    And very rams to fight. No one had seen
    Their backs in battle or one finger mailless
    ;
    Their banner was a pard with claws projecting....

    With tymbals, elephants, and many troops,
    All eager for the fray, and mighty men
    Brought from Kashmír, Kábulistán, Nímrúz,
    All noble and the lustre of the world.
    He had a banner like his valiant sire's—
    That Rustam who could be surpassed by none—
    With seven heads, “The heads as of a dragon
    That had escaped from bonds,” thou wouldst have
    said.
    In favour like a fruitful tree he came,
    And uttered many a blessing on the Sháh,
    Who with a heart that joyed at Farámarz
    Gave him much prudent rede and said to him:—
    “The nursling of the elephantine chief
    Will be pre-eminent among the people.
    Thou art the son of wary-hearted Rustam,
    Thou art from Zál—Sám's son—and Narímán.
    Now is the land of Hindústán thine own,
    All from Kannúj up to Sístán is thine;
    ...
    The Sháh approved all that Ashkash had done As ruler of Makrán, and chose a chief, Bestowing on him many gifts and blessings. When with the noble chieftains of Írán Khusrau had left Makrán and drawn toward Chín, Came Rustam, son of Zál, the son of Sám
    While Ferdausi is clearly off on his sequence of events mixing different eras, it appears that he is talking about the Ashkanians and their wars in the Caucasus as the Alans are mentioned.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Posting this here, as I did not want to derail the Gedrrosia12 thread.
    Extracts from Shahnama that I was referring to in the post:
    http://persian.packhum.org/persian/m...8%26work%3D001




    While Ferdausi is clearly off on his sequence of events mixing different eras, it appears that he is talking about the Ashkanians and their wars in the Caucasus as the Alans are mentioned.

    The story I've heard is the reverse, as you've mentioned: Kurds + Baloch = one people ---> Mythical progeny of Hamza ibn Abu Talib and a Fairy before his death at the Ghazwa-e-Uhud ---> Fought in Karbala for Ali ibn Abi Talib against Yazeed and end up in Halab, Shaam (Allepo) ---> Major disruption or war (with Persians? Mongol invasions?) forces a split of populous to defend eastern and western borders OR to flee to safety (no one says which consistently) ---> Kurds end up where they are today; Baloch end up in Sistan then eventually Makran after fleeing from another leader called Abdulshams. This is just a story, oral tradition. In the tradition of the Baloch: Kurds are Baloch and Baloch are Kurds -- at the very least they believe the Kurds to be their closest relations. The belief is time and distance is why they are 2 groups and why the languages are different. Most Baloch believe Kurdish and Balochi was the same language, evolving over time into divergent identities.

    Obviously, the beginning of the story is made up -- as many Muslim groups tend to make up a fantastic origin stories to make them more "Muslim". However, the mention of Halab is very consistent, the mention of the Caspian, the mention of Kerman and Sistan, and the mention of Abdulshams and his demand of a girl from the 44 bolaks. That's pretty much it. Even upon arrival to Makran much is shrouded in mystery -- all Baloch epics begin with Mir Chakar Khan Rind and his wars with Mir Gwahram Khan Lashari in the 15th century -- when they crossed the Indus. Everything before is rather conjecture. Mir Chakar is why there are Baloch in the Eastern Hills and Southern Punjab and Mir Lashari is why Baloch are in Sindh. These specific stories are very much apart of Makrani, Brahui and Baloch songs in Pakistan. However, I don't know to what extent they are prevalent in the the less populated areas of Sistan, as Irani Balochistan had a very popular revolt under Mir Dad Shah Baloch in the 1950s and it seems to me that much of their cultural reference refers back to him. Even many present day tribe names in Iran are based of his lineage. Either way, the detailed stories are from much later time periods; and while the main story is consistent, there is little historical proof of it. The only other consistent story is that of Mir Jalal Khan Baloch, first King of the Baloch, who united the the tribes into a confederacy in the 12th century. He had 4 sons and 1 daughter; Rind, Lashar, Hooth, Korai, and Jato -- Jato married his nephew Murad and almost all tribes claim lineage from these lines. (ie. Lashari, Jatoi ect..) After this time an accurate account of lineage began.

    There is not much sense of time given in any story, so it's hard to even guess when to look for clues in history.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 08-20-2015 at 06:01 PM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    ...
    Fought in Karbala for Ali ibn Abi Talib against Yazeed ...
    There is not much sense of time given in any story, so it's hard to even guess when to look for clues in history.
    A version of the first story is even told among Brahmans, so if nothing else it was popular! https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

    As far as Ferdausi and his story about Ashkash, it dates to the Parthians. There is no contemporary notice of the early Parthians. Firdasusi put them in the era of Kaynians (the Kavis - preGreek) which to me appears wrong. For some reason the period after the war between Seleucus by Chandragupta is totally blank - nothing in Greek, Persian, or Aramaic sources from the period.

    Even the Parthian empire may be a misnomer, as no non-western source uses that term. Arrian (in Parthika), along with others, who is writing about 400 hundred years later does in a way show this confusion on their origin.

    The question is who was Arsakes? Ashek? Arshak? Ashkash?

    Let's examine the historians:

    1. Strabo
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11I*.html
    Strabo, about 250 years after Arsakes:
    "Arsaces, a Scythian, with some of the Däae (I mean the Aparnians, as they were called, nomads who lived along the Ochus)"
    "They say that the Aparnian Däae were emigrants from the Däae above Lake Maeotis [Azov]"
    "others say that he was a Bactrian"

    So essentially Strabo is not clear. Arsakes could be from north of Azov-Oxus, or Balkh.

    2. Arrian
    Two brothers, Arsaces and Tiridates, the descendants of Arsaces, the son of Phriapitus
    or alternatively, Arsaces and Tiridates, satraps of Bactria, descended of Artaxerxes

    So the account attributed to Arrian is also dubious.

    3. Armenian Moses of Chorene
    Writing about the Arcasid dynasty of Armenia about the first Arshak: Arshak ruled from Bahl Arawavtin [Balkh, Bactria] in the land of the Kushans.

    4. Mirkhond
    Who states he was not able to find anything on them so wrote based on prevalent stories calls them mulk at tawaif.

    5. Ferdausi
    Admits he has little knowledge and essentially was filling a historically dark period.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=An3f1IvSbXUC&pg=PA529


    Nevertheless, the consensus seems to be that Arsakes/Ashak was ruling Bactria, revolted against the Seleucids, and forced the Seleucids out from Persia.

    This seems plausible since another Arsakes is also mentioned by the Greeks preceding the Seleucid period:

    "At this time Arsakes,3 ruler of the country adjoining the dominions of Abisares, together with the brother of Abisares and his other relatives, came to him, bringing presents such as the Indians consider the most valuable, and some thirty elephants sent by Abisares. They represented that Abisares was prevented from coming in person by illness—a statement which the ambassadors sent by Alexander to Abisares corroborated. Alexander, readily believing that such was the case, made Abisares satrap of his own dominions, and moreover placed Arsakes under his jurisdiction."
    Last edited by parasar; 08-22-2015 at 07:30 PM.

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    A version of the first story is even told among Brahmans, so if nothing else it was popular! https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

    As far as Ferdausi and his story about Ashkash, it dates to the Parthians. There is no contemporary notice of the early Parthians. Firdasusi put them in the era of Kaynians (the Kavis - preGreek) which to me appears wrong. For some reason the period after the war between Seleucus by Chandragupta is totally blank - nothing in Greek, Persian, or Aramaic sources from the period.

    Even the Parthian empire may be a misnomer, as no non-western source uses that term. Arrian (in Parthika), along with others, who is writing about 400 hundred years later does in a way show this confusion on their origin.

    The question is who was Arsakes? Ashek? Arshak? Ashkash?

    Let's examine the historians:

    1. Strabo
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11I*.html
    Strabo, about 250 years after Arsakes:
    "Arsaces, a Scythian, with some of the Däae (I mean the Aparnians, as they were called, nomads who lived along the Ochus)"
    "They say that the Aparnian Däae were emigrants from the Däae above Lake Maeotis [Azov]"
    "others say that he was a Bactrian"

    So essentially Strabo is not clear. Arsakes could be from north of Azov-Oxus, or Balkh.

    2. Arrian
    Two brothers, Arsaces and Tiridates, the descendants of Arsaces, the son of Phriapitus
    or alternatively, Arsaces and Tiridates, satraps of Bactria, descended of Artaxerxes

    So the account attributed to Arrian is also dubious.

    3. Armenian Moses of Chorene
    Writing about the Arcasid dynasty of Armenia about the first Arshak: Arshak ruled from Bahl Arawavtin [Balkh, Bactria] in the land of the Kushans.

    4. Mirkhond
    Who states he was not able to find anything on them so wrote based on prevalent stories calls them mulk at tawaif.

    5. Ferdausi
    Admits he has little knowledge and essentially was filling a historically dark period.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=An3f1IvSbXUC&pg=PA529


    Nevertheless, the consensus seems to be that Arsakes/Ashak was ruling Bactria, revolted against the Seleucids, and forced the Seleucids out from Persia.

    This seems plausible since another Arsakes is also mentioned by the Greeks preceding the Seleucid period:

    "At this time Arsakes,3 ruler of the country adjoining the dominions of Abisares, together with the brother of Abisares and his other relatives, came to him, bringing presents such as the Indians consider the most valuable, and some thirty elephants sent by Abisares. They represented that Abisares was prevented from coming in person by illness—a statement which the ambassadors sent by Alexander to Abisares corroborated. Alexander, readily believing that such was the case, made Abisares satrap of his own dominions, and moreover placed Arsakes under his jurisdiction."
    You have delved much deeper than the knowledge I have off the top of my head! I will have to research and study before I can actually comment. Almost everything I write on this site is based on the culminations of books I've read almost 3 years ago...or my own personal observations and experiences... also from years ago... safe to say, I'm a little rusty.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Part of Baloch people origin from Levant - Anatolia. There are carriers of E-L792 subclade among Balochis. (E-L792 is typical fro Syria/Anatolia region).
    Interesting.

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