Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 30

Thread: Balochistan

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,864

    Balochistan

    To start off the discussion anybody have any info on the original SW Iranian language of Balochistan?

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to newtoboard For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (03-28-2015), NK19191 (04-08-2015), Sein (03-29-2015), Táltos (03-29-2015)

  3. #2
    Administrator
    Posts
    2,428
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA
    D4j5*

    England
    Excellent question. Firstly, is there anything for us to assume the language spoken in Balochistan (either in the Iranian or Pakistani side) was a SW Iranic language?

    As there's evidently shared genetic heritage between Balochis and other southern Iranian or Indus groups, one would assume some linguistic continuity also took place. The proposal that Balochi completely replaced the dialects spoken in Iranian/Pakistani Balochistan is hard to accept.

    I'll briefly read up on the linguistic components of the Balochi language later to see if there's any clues (morphology, vocabulary etc.)

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Kaido (03-28-2015), NK19191 (04-08-2015), Sein (03-29-2015), Táltos (03-29-2015)

  5. #3
    Senior Member
    Posts
    632
    Sex
    Location
    In the tent of Abu kadreh
    Ethnicity
    Kassitic acolyte
    Y-DNA
    J1a1b1a1(J-PF7263)
    mtDNA
    J2b1

    I wonder if there is a connection with khorasan. I've yet to find anything informative about the origin of balooch language. We only know that it was carried from the zagros range, considering it's NW and vocabulary similarities with Kurdish.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Arbogan For This Useful Post:

     NK19191 (04-08-2015), Sein (03-30-2015), Táltos (03-29-2015)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,864

    I read about the name for this language a while ago (Lari? can't remember).

    But I have some problems with the Zagros theory. NW Iranian languages were spoken as far east as Turkmenistan (Parthian). So why does the Zagros theory sound better rather than a migration from somewhere like Semnan, the Northern portion of North Khorasan or Southern Tukrmenistan. Encyclopedia Iranica seems to agree with that theory too.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to newtoboard For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (04-06-2015), NK19191 (04-08-2015), Sein (03-30-2015)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,115
    Sex

    Baloch History

    Here is an excerpt from an article written by Professor Naela Quadri regarding Baloch history http://www.cpp.net.pk/2013/06/24/sto...quadri-baloch/:

    "The great Kurd nation is the ancestral or mother nation of Baloch. Kaldani, Adargani, Naroi, Brahoi, Zangana are the major ancient Kurd tribes that have multiplied and developed as today’s Baloch nation. Balochi (Brahoi, Rakhshani, Sulemani and Makurani) dialects are also spoken by Kurds till today. Few hundred years ago a famous Baloch scholar Akhund Saleh wrote a book ‘Kurdgal Namek’ that contains all the details of these Kurds and their fabulous ameers who lived in a very organized, united and respectable manner from Makran to Central Asia. Kurd ancestors have left their cherished memories as Gabrband the catch dams for water management,

    Miri the Kurd forts and Karez the underground irrigation channels, these are found all around Makran, Jhalawan, Sarawan, Rakhshan, Sibi and Derajat. Khuzdar and Kalat always have been the capital of Balochistan. Baloch country has always been a welcoming homeland for all Kurd Balochs from Halab Syria, coast of Caspian Sea, and Mount Alboorz whenever they had serious problems with their neighbor nations.

    Arrival of these Balochs strengthened local Kurd Baloch’s defensive and economic systems and contributed new shades of culture in the existed rich Kurd Baloch culture. This migration is of internal nature; Kurd Baloch people had issues in their habitats they migrated to Balochistan for a safer life with their own Balochs in majority and stronger position but sometimes historians mistakenly assume any one of these great migrations as the whole Baloch history that needs to be corrected. Balochs are living in Balochistan for thousands of years in a proven sequence of all ages pre Neolithic that is before stone age, Neolithic chalcolithic age when humans domesticated animals and started agriculture, till today’s scientific age, and in all these ages we have created almost same geometric designs as motifs, paintings, embroidery, rugs, carvings so it is not only a proof that we are the creators of Mehrgarh, but it is also a unique journey of creative art for eleven thousand years by Kurd Baloch women that is mostly made with geometric shapes and permanent colors these colors become more prominent on the rocks when rain falls on these paintings even today.

    These red and black colors are used in pottery painting in Mehrgarh and many thousand years after in painting of Kurd Baloch heroes and same kind of symbols on rocks in the mountains of Balochistan and Kurdistan. Treasure hunters are busy in digging and destroying the archeological sites for greed they sell our history for few pennies they must be stopped, anywhere you find such thieves stop them; there should be a punishment for such thieves by community elders, because they are depriving us from our national pride.

    Kalat was the capital of the Kurd Baloch country centuries before the Hakhmanshi dynasty of Faras. According to Kurdgal Namek the great Med Kochak Kurd is the great ancestor of the indigenous Balochs of the present Balochistan from his line eight Kurd Baloch brothers are the ancestors of the main basic Baloch tribes Adargani Kurd Baloch lived in Makran, Naroi Kurd Baloch in Seistan and Rakhshan till Nimroze and Hirat, Brahoi Kurd Balochs in Sarawan Jhalawan, in Kachhi they lived jointly for a stronger defensive strategy. Zangana Kurds lived in the north of Balochistan now in Afghanistan.

    Another great Baloch tribe is Rind from the line of eminent Kaldani Kurds lived in Halab Syria. One of the grand migrations in Baloch history is of forty four Kaldani Kurd tribes collectively called the Rind in the leadership of Mir Jalal Khan migrated from Halab to Makran. The brave Rinds are living from Makran to Sibi and Derajat as one of the prominent Baloch tribes playing leading role in today’s Baloch independence movement as Marri and Bugti.

    Around eight hundred years ago a brave Kurd chief Amir Kambar Rais put the foundation of the present Baloch dynasty. Amir Meero, Mir Omar, Mir Hammal Jiand Hote, Mir Chakar Rind, Noori Naseer Khan, Mir Mehrab Khan earned the status of great Baloch rulers in history".


    The consensus is that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language.

  10. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     dp (08-29-2015), Farroukh (06-13-2015), NK19191 (04-08-2015), parasar (03-30-2015), paulgill (04-17-2015), Rick (03-29-2015), Sein (03-30-2015), surbakhunWeesste (03-29-2015)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,933
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    I believe that the main P297 branch headed straight through south Siberia or the northernmost edge of central Asia/steppe corridor to the Urals and into the European steppe. R seems to originate in south-central Siberia, was there during the LGM - Mal'ta-and then appears in eastern Europe in the Mesolithic.

    However, it stands to reason, given that R was not an arctic or far north lineage that at small part of it could also have passed west from Altai by a more southern route fusing what would later be trade routes along the north side of the mountain fringe of central/inner Asia and from there could have passed into India and also SW Europe. The latter probably explains the very upstream branch off from R and R1b in those areas. In general the desert zones east of the Caspian would have forces the choice of heading west on a latitude of either the north or south shore of the Caspian.

    I do believe that the spread of pressure microblades may demonstrate this split actually happened because c. 9500BC this Siberian technique appeared simultaneously in the Urals and in Iran. The spread through eastern Europe was gradual c. 9500-7500BC and it appears to me that this technique was not far enough west c.9500BC for the Iranian examples to have come via the Caucasus. It seems much more likely to me, due to the deserts east of the Caspian that both the steppe corridor to the north and the Tarim kind of route were simultaniously used with the two groups parting around Altai. It all ties in rather well.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     NK19191 (04-08-2015), parasar (03-30-2015), paulgill (04-17-2015)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,899

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Here is an excerpt from an article written by Professor Naela Quadri regarding Baloch history http://www.cpp.net.pk/2013/06/24/sto...quadri-baloch/:

    "The great Kurd nation is the ancestral or mother nation of Baloch. Kaldani, Adargani, Naroi, Brahoi, Zangana are the major ancient Kurd tribes that have multiplied and developed as today’s Baloch nation. Balochi (Brahoi, Rakhshani, Sulemani and Makurani) dialects are also spoken by Kurds till today. Few hundred years ago a famous Baloch scholar Akhund Saleh wrote a book ‘Kurdgal Namek’ that contains all the details of these Kurds and their fabulous ameers who lived in a very organized, united and respectable manner from Makran to Central Asia. Kurd ancestors have left their cherished memories as Gabrband the catch dams for water management,

    Miri the Kurd forts and Karez the underground irrigation channels, these are found all around Makran, Jhalawan, Sarawan, Rakhshan, Sibi and Derajat. Khuzdar and Kalat always have been the capital of Balochistan. Baloch country has always been a welcoming homeland for all Kurd Balochs from Halab Syria, coast of Caspian Sea, and Mount Alboorz whenever they had serious problems with their neighbor nations.

    Arrival of these Balochs strengthened local Kurd Baloch’s defensive and economic systems and contributed new shades of culture in the existed rich Kurd Baloch culture. This migration is of internal nature; Kurd Baloch people had issues in their habitats they migrated to Balochistan for a safer life with their own Balochs in majority and stronger position but sometimes historians mistakenly assume any one of these great migrations as the whole Baloch history that needs to be corrected. Balochs are living in Balochistan for thousands of years in a proven sequence of all ages pre Neolithic that is before stone age, Neolithic chalcolithic age when humans domesticated animals and started agriculture, till today’s scientific age, and in all these ages we have created almost same geometric designs as motifs, paintings, embroidery, rugs, carvings so it is not only a proof that we are the creators of Mehrgarh, but it is also a unique journey of creative art for eleven thousand years by Kurd Baloch women that is mostly made with geometric shapes and permanent colors these colors become more prominent on the rocks when rain falls on these paintings even today.

    These red and black colors are used in pottery painting in Mehrgarh and many thousand years after in painting of Kurd Baloch heroes and same kind of symbols on rocks in the mountains of Balochistan and Kurdistan. Treasure hunters are busy in digging and destroying the archeological sites for greed they sell our history for few pennies they must be stopped, anywhere you find such thieves stop them; there should be a punishment for such thieves by community elders, because they are depriving us from our national pride.

    Kalat was the capital of the Kurd Baloch country centuries before the Hakhmanshi dynasty of Faras. According to Kurdgal Namek the great Med Kochak Kurd is the great ancestor of the indigenous Balochs of the present Balochistan from his line eight Kurd Baloch brothers are the ancestors of the main basic Baloch tribes Adargani Kurd Baloch lived in Makran, Naroi Kurd Baloch in Seistan and Rakhshan till Nimroze and Hirat, Brahoi Kurd Balochs in Sarawan Jhalawan, in Kachhi they lived jointly for a stronger defensive strategy. Zangana Kurds lived in the north of Balochistan now in Afghanistan.

    Another great Baloch tribe is Rind from the line of eminent Kaldani Kurds lived in Halab Syria. One of the grand migrations in Baloch history is of forty four Kaldani Kurd tribes collectively called the Rind in the leadership of Mir Jalal Khan migrated from Halab to Makran. The brave Rinds are living from Makran to Sibi and Derajat as one of the prominent Baloch tribes playing leading role in today’s Baloch independence movement as Marri and Bugti.

    Around eight hundred years ago a brave Kurd chief Amir Kambar Rais put the foundation of the present Baloch dynasty. Amir Meero, Mir Omar, Mir Hammal Jiand Hote, Mir Chakar Rind, Noori Naseer Khan, Mir Mehrab Khan earned the status of great Baloch rulers in history".


    The consensus is that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language.
    A few points:

    I have not come across any Balochis from Aleppo or Mount Elbruz.
    Caspian Sea perhaps - if we follow Shahnameh's scattered account.

    If we go centuries before the Hakhmanshiyas, the concept of NW Iranian loses all geographic significance.

    Linguistically NW Iranian is often closer to Indic that SW Iranian is.
    Some examples -
    knowledge: gyan/jan (Indic) zan (NW Iranian) dan (SW Iranian)
    son-in-law: jamatar (Indic) zamat (NW Iranian) damad (SW Iranian)
    iron: ayas (Indic) asin (NW Iranian) ahan (SW Iranian)

    To me the connection between NW Iranian and Indic looks to be from the Parthian/Pahlavian period.

    In the often incoherent accounts of Shahnameh too, there is an inkling of a Parthian connection. Jaguda (Zabolistan) was the homeland of Parthians. While Ferdausi also brings in the Kays/Hakhmanshiyas into the picture, the Kays were well before the Parthian period, though perhaps their name had survived in lore.

    While legends have their place, there is no denying the fact that the first historical mention of the Pahlavas is in Rudradaman's Junagadh inscription.
    "the minister Suvishakha, the son of Kulaipa, a Pahlava, who for the benefit of the inhabitants of the towns and country had been appointed by the king in this government to rule the whole of Anarta and Surashtra"
    http://www.sdstate.edu/projectsoutha...Rudradaman.pdf

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Kurd (04-07-2015), NK19191 (04-08-2015), paulgill (04-17-2015)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,864

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I believe that the main P297 branch headed straight through south Siberia or the northernmost edge of central Asia/steppe corridor to the Urals and into the European steppe. R seems to originate in south-central Siberia, was there during the LGM - Mal'ta-and then appears in eastern Europe in the Mesolithic.

    However, it stands to reason, given that R was not an arctic or far north lineage that at small part of it could also have passed west from Altai by a more southern route fusing what would later be trade routes along the north side of the mountain fringe of central/inner Asia and from there could have passed into India and also SW Europe. The latter probably explains the very upstream branch off from R and R1b in those areas. In general the desert zones east of the Caspian would have forces the choice of heading west on a latitude of either the north or south shore of the Caspian.

    I do believe that the spread of pressure microblades may demonstrate this split actually happened because c. 9500BC this Siberian technique appeared simultaneously in the Urals and in Iran. The spread through eastern Europe was gradual c. 9500-7500BC and it appears to me that this technique was not far enough west c.9500BC for the Iranian examples to have come via the Caucasus. It seems much more likely to me, due to the deserts east of the Caspian that both the steppe corridor to the north and the Tarim kind of route were simultaniously used with the two groups parting around Altai. It all ties in rather well.
    Are we sure the desert zones were there back then? Didn't the Aral sea still empty into the Caspian back then via a large river? If I recall Michal said this was a very fertile forest steppe like region back then which is what lead to his original (I guess now disproven?) theory of R1b originating near the SE Caspian.

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    152
    Sex
    Location
    جای کیان
    Ethnicity
    Tajik-Pakhtun

    Greater Khorasan Saffarid Dynasty Ghaznavid Dynasty Late United States of America Afghanistan Austria
    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    Parachi is still spoken in parts of Panjsher; it was probably more widespread in the past. It's interesting that it shares features with Northwest Iranian language groups.

    Geographical distribution. Parāčī is an Iranian language now spoken northeast of Kabul in the Šotol valley, north of Golbahār, and in the Ḡočūlān and Pačaḡān branches of the Neǰrao valley, northeast of Golbahār. The names of the Šotol villages have been given by Farhādī as Sang-e Laḵšān, Māra (“the pasture”), and Deh-e Kalān (G. Morgenstierne, “Istālif and other place-names of Afghanistan,” BSOAS 33, 1970, pp. 350-52
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...tan-vii-paraci

    But from early times, the adjacent (Shotol and Hazara) and upper valleys (Paryan) joined the "front," even if their inhabitants did not call themselves Panjshiri (in Shotol they were even from a different ethnic group whose language is Parachi, not Persian).
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Tm...page&q&f=false


    It is fascinating that both of these languages show many features in common with Persian, and they have been designated as southeast Iranian relict languages.34 Unfortunately it is not possible to determine when the ancestors of the Parachi and Ormuri speakers arrived in the mountains of Afghanistan, and exactly what relationship they had to the Pashtuns. If the relations between their tongues and New Persian could be clarified, the proto-Parachi and Ormuri speakers might have been an intrusion from the west in historic times. Or they might have been the original Iranian invaders into a Dardic-speaking area in very early times. A few concurrences in vocabulary between these languages and Brahui, Baluchi and Pashtu indicate little more than geographic proximity and complex borrowings which cannot be tied to historical events or even to the movements of peoples.
    https://archive.org/stream/TheHistor...tIran_djvu.txt
    Last edited by Rukha; 04-10-2015 at 01:07 AM.

  17. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Rukha For This Useful Post:

     Kurd (04-09-2015), Megalophias (04-10-2015), NK19191 (04-09-2015), noel (04-09-2015), parasar (04-10-2015), Sein (04-09-2015), surbakhunWeesste (04-10-2015)

  18. #10
    Senior Member
    Posts
    632
    Sex
    Location
    In the tent of Abu kadreh
    Ethnicity
    Kassitic acolyte
    Y-DNA
    J1a1b1a1(J-PF7263)
    mtDNA
    J2b1

    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    I disagree with parthian having a signficiant influence on the local dialects of west-iran. It's which's value has been thrown around.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 04-10-2015 at 12:43 PM.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •